Bad Mother Brigade

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Thanks mears and robinw.
He won't take a dummy, just spits it out. My friends are all as busy as me, but I am thinking of trying your other suggestions, such as diet, childminder, etc. She has offered to take him too, but I'm worried about inflicting the screams on her. He screamed for ages when I left him with hid dad to see the Mel Gibson film that so freaked me out (wish I hadn't bothered!)
The last time I spoke to my HV about this, she said there was no respite care unless I wanted to get really drastic and put them in care. I'm seriously considering something drastic, as I've got to the stage where a day or two at the childminders wouldn't be enough. I need a complete break for quite a while, a total time out.

Rethink the childminder - cool confident people can pacify crying babies where partners can't. You need to be away from screaming or you will give in and feed him. I think that is because partners convey anxiety to babies when trying to settle/feed them EBM because they wish you were there.
Robinw I don't disagree with the use of a dummy where feeding is established. I have a number of friends who did just that ( so did I with ds no.3). Again the childminder might be the person to get him to do it.
My friend did it by popping it in after a feed when her ds was half asleep - he then started sucking it without realising. Another just held it in till he 'bl**dy well took it' - her words not mine

Droile - you sound like you're having a terrible time. I'm not an expert (1 dd only 4 months), but here's a couple of suggestions:

how old is your ds (the screaming one)? Is it possible he's suffering from colic? if so you could try cutting various things out of your diet - dairy worked for me - and massaging his belly. Little babies seem to interpret anything as hunger so the fact that he's feeding all the time could suggest another problem.

To get him to take a dummy - have you tried just slipping one in when he's just had a feed and is half asleep? I think it helps if you then pull it out again a little as this makes them suck harder.
Also it sounds like a bottle would really help - have you tried getting someone else to give it to him? (my dd wouldn't take a bottle from me at first, but would from someone else). And I would definately think again about sending both to the childminder - she'll have dealt with screaming babies before!

good luck

Dear Droile,
I am by NO means an expert and maybe this is a silly question but if your DS is 18 weeks have you started on any solids yet? My DS was a big baby and very hungry - I am afraid I gave up the breast feeding at 8 weeks because of the constant feeding and screaming - I am not suggesting you do that - I wish I hadn't given up BUT things did improve somewhat with bottles and then drastically when I started him on solids. My DS was just very hungry all the time - still is at nearly 3.
I know how awful the constant screaming is - just cuts into you doesn't it? I really sympathise. A good friend of mine who had grown up children told me when my ds screamed so much that it bothered me much more than it bothered anyone else and she used to come round for an hour or two a couple of times a week and sit with him or take him for a walk so that I could have a bit of space. He did scream but she assured me that she didn't mind - she always got to give him back! So on the childminder front - even a two hour break twice a week will do you good.
Thinking of you XX

Thanks ghosty, lucy123 and mears again.
The dummy business is a bit tricky because I'm currently trying to prize one off my 3 yr old, who even talks while it's in. Ds 2 is 18 weeks. I'm trying to make it to 6 months without solids. To be honest, I drove away from them both last night. Didn't manage to get further than 3 miles though. I think that in years to come it will be recognised that childrearing is not a job for one person and so situations like this won't arise. My father was nigerian and in that country, many hands make light work as far as home and family are concerned. Having said that, there is much going on in that culture that I would hate.

Hi Droile,

Poor you. This sounds like a hellish time and it seems like you are getting very little support. Please don't feel bad about feeling bad- no one can cope alone all the time.

I feel strongly that you need to grab on firmly to the little support you've got and not let it go. What is your health visitor up to? Has she just told you that your only options are to bear it or put the kids into care? This is the message I got from your posts... Is she visiting you more often now she knows that you are feeling so awful and are in desperate need of support? She should be... Is she able to refer you on to Sure Start or any voluntary organisations? Home-Start and MAMA come to mind as potentially helpful but there may be others which run in your local area and are there to help with just your sort of situation. Please talk to the H/V again and see if she can refer you on to any that sound helpful. But if she is truly useless you can self-refer to most organisations. It may also be worth ringing Parentline Plus (0800 800 2222) to have a general chat about how you are feeling - they are very supportive- and to see if they can offer any information about possible help in your area.

What about DH? Is there any way of communicating to him how hard you are finding things at the moment? Does he have any choice about his working hours? (I don't know much about farming, I'm afraid so apologies if that is just a laughable thought) What about weekends? Is he pulling his weight with the boys? If you can talk to him and tell him how you are feeling, I think it's crucial that you do. What are his expectations like of how the housework etc is split? I appreciate that his working hours probably don't leave much time for house work but remember- neither do yours. Is he fully aware that until things get on a more even keel the house may be a bit chaotic unless he helps out? You just cannot do it all, Droile, and it's very important that he knows that and is ok with it. I would be expecting my partner to be taking leave from work if I were in this situation so that I could get some rest.

I echo completely what the others have said about getting ds2 to the childminders. If you truly think it's too much for him and/or the childminder to take then adjust him in gradually starting by leaving him for an hour or so and building up to full days as and when it's possible. It sounds like the childminder is a key person in your support network- almost the only one who is offering any practical help, in fact- and I would grab onto any time she can offer with both hands, if you can afford it. Don't worry too much about ds2- he'll be fine even if he does scream the place down.

Another thought, are you sure you have tapped every family member/friend for any sort of support they can offer? I know from other threads that you don't have much of an extended family to turn to but what about DH's family, if he has any? And your friends? Maybe one of them could take Ds2, ds1 or even both of them for an afternoon occasionally? Could a local teenager be trusted to wheel one of them in his buggy to the park to give you a couple of hours with just one?

If you ARE absolutely desperate and feel you really cannot cope a second longer then obviously you should call social services and ask about respite care. There is absolutely no shame in this. You are going through a very rough time and there is so little in the way of support there for you. Having said this, and sorry if it's blindingly obvious, please please try every other way of getting more support before you approach social services. They will not take your son/sons into care unless you convince them that there are serious risks to them staying under your care. IE that there are physical or emotional risks to them if they stay in the family home. Social services, in this context, are concerned with risks to CHILDREN not exhaustion, depression and lack of support for adults. That these two are often intimately connected is often overlooked, IME. If social services do agree to take either or both of your children into care you may find it quite difficult to get them back, at least in the short term, because, in taking them into care there is the implication that leaving them with you could have had serious consequences for them. I don't know where you live or what the ss provision is like there- some areas can offer much more support than others. But do think very very carefully and be very sure that there is no other option before you go down this route.

Sorry this is so long, Driole. I hope some of it helps. I really do have shedloads of sympathy. It's a very difficult time and I will be thinking of you and hoping it gets better.

Droile, nothing much to add to the already good advice but another thought: could you just give yourself a break on the dummy front and let him have it while life is this hard for you? Please don't beat yourself up about the dummy, my ds had one til 3.5 and it just seems as if this is another pressure you're putting yourself under atm. I hope things get better for you soon and agree that talking to your DH and seeing if the childminder can help might be useful. Good luck.

Thanks v. much indeed for your help, everyone. Will answer fully later, as have to go out now.

And, I know that you want to exclusively feed your ds until he is 6 months, but is it worth it? My ds was the same as yours by the sounds of things, and, although he still fed a lot for the first few weeks of weaning (because of the amount of solids given), it did tail off. By 8 months he was only on 3 feeds a day.

Don't think that I am criticising your decision to feed to 6 months, because I am not. I just totally empathise with you feeling like all you ever do is feed your ds. Mine was on the boob on the hour almost every hour. It was wearing, and what with the two or three wakes ups every night, I was beginning to wonder if my depression was coming back. I was knackered.

I think that the childminder idea is good. They are used to dealing with screaming children, but I think that you would find that your ds would adapt pretty quickly. He could be sensing your feelings and responding accordingly, but if you were not available for his every whim sometimes, it MIGHT do him some good. Don't let this get on top of you. I wish that I had done the childminder thing myself, as it would have taught my ds to be a bit more independent, and would have given me some time to do something non-baby related, like a massage or facial.

Good luck, and let us know how you are feeling.

Scummymummy, I haven't spoken to the HV about this for a few weeks, but when I came home after the c/section to absolutely no help, they said that there was nothing available except care, which they strongly advised against, or a nursery nursing student on a placement. They thought I might be suffering from PND, since I had this with ds1, and wanted me to try antidepressants, but I am convinced that all I need is a break. PND feels very different. I've heard of homestart and will look into it when I can summon the energy. It sounds silly, but I don't feel I could cope with a student in the house. It would seem like one more person to look after and organise, since she would be looking for direction from me. Also, the house would need to be in a better state than its current shambles.
Thanks for the parentline number - I'll definately try that tomorrow.
As for DH, I have talked about these issues with him until the cows, etc, but now it just ends in rows and he refuses to budge. It's a long story, but he has been combining farming (a dead loss for us financially) with landscape gardening (v. lucrative) for years, and has now decided to take the plunge and get out of farming (rent out land, convert buildings, etc). He works 7 days a week, only has sunday afternoons off and doesn't finish until past 9pm and can't wait to give it up (only ever took it on because of family ties). However, instead of having a one-off sale, he has decided to sell the stock singly or in small batches or as each cow calves, because they are worth more this way. unfortunately, this will take about a year, so I'm looking at next spring before I see him in the evenings. I don't agree with his way of doing things and have tried everything from threats to promises, but he won't budge.
When he does see the children he is fantastic with them, but he does nothing in the house (no time) and doesn't get up in the night, except to see to ds1, who never wakes!
I suppose you could say that I knew the situation before we had children, but he didn' finish quite so late back then and promised he would change his lifestyle if we did start a family. Otherwise I wouldn't have had them.
When I came home from hospital I expected him to take the afternoons off (which he can easily do temporarily), but he didn't. Not one.
I think that the answer proabaly is the childminder. One of the reasons I've held off is because we had such horrendous problems with ds1 when he was in childcare 3 days/week, not settling, for months on end, even at a really good nursery. It would finish me off to go through that again, but I know I've got to at least try.
Thats for the info re care - I wasn't aware of some of those factors, especially not getting them back. I does make you wonder though, what happens to people who have to go into hospital when they don't have family nearby.
I have plenty of support on the telephone from friends and some people have offrered to have them for a hour here and there, but to be honest, most of my friends work so aren't really in a position to help no matter how much they might want to. My SAHM friends seem to be stretched to the limits themselves.
Thanks for all your suggestions, www and everyone. Talking about it and getting replies seems to help enormously.

Thanks Ghosty. I gave him his first baby rice tonight, so we shall see.
lucy123, I might try and investigate the colic theory, but as his weight gain has levelled off, I think it could be genuine hunger.

Hi again, Driole.

I hope that baby rice does the trick for your baby!

Also, just wanted to clarify re social services- it's not that they would or could take your boys away permanently with no good reason and never return them. It's just that if you get this kind of support from them- ie they agree that they should be taken into care, even for a short time- it would be given on the basis that the boys were "unsafe" in your custody. Obviously there are many many definitions of unsafe (mum in hospital will be covered there somewhere!) and the social worker would have to show that they fit one of the criteria before she took that kind of action. You might then have to prove that you were able to care for them in order for them to be returned to the family home.
Having said this, I am in no way implying that a social worker would want to take the boys into care or that if they did they would be reluctant to return them to you per se. From what you have said I find that a very unlikely prospect. But IME once children have been taken into care, even when there is not a child protection issue, it can take some time for things to be sorted out as it often heralds the start of a long assessment process to find out what is in the best interests of the child. Because of the disruption to children of flitting from place to place they will often remain in care during this process, though the parents will have visiting rights.
I do want to stress that services vary so much from place to place and it may be worth phoning social services to ask about provision in your area and find out if there is any support they can give without resorting to care.

Anyway, hon, hope things take a turn for the better soon and good luck with Parentline. Hope they'll be able to suggest something more tangiable that will give you some help. x

Right - and I've just noticed that he's 18 weeks. Probably is hunger then.

My dd is almost exactly the same age and started feeding much more recently (yes, didn't help that I'd been resorting to formula in the day). I now give her a small bottle of formula in the evenings and a small portion of solids twice a day. It definately helps (actually I think she's teething too, but that's another thing). I was also going to try for 6 months breast feeding, but my sanity (and sleep) took precedence!

Re getting him settled with the childminder - is there any way she can come to you a couple of afternoons before he goes to her? That way he could get used to her and the strange place one at a time and - I think - would be less likely to become unsettled.

And I agree about the pnd thing. The people at the health centre told me to go to the doctors for depression when I collapsed in tears at being told there is no post-natal support / mother and baby group type thing (I live in Spain). I know people can be depressed without realising, but you know when it's a specific thing you need. I may well just need a bit of help soon as we are moving, running out of money and I'll lose my childminder/cleaner (only two hours a week but heaven!). I plan to advertise free English lessons for cleaning/ babysitting - is there anything you can do like that? I know it's still work, but change is as good as a rest.

I feel like the worst mother in the world tonight.
Mine have been a real pain today, and this afternoon whilst I was ringing my mum to check whether youngest son had left part from his new bayblade (which I bought for all three of mine as they have been desperate for them for months) there yesterday, oldest son and daughter had a glue fight (glue all over there clothes) and then youngest son allegedly weeed all over oldest sons bayblade.
I completely lost it, sent them all upstairs, took the bayblades and told them that they had gone in the bin, and they won't be having them back (i cannot go back on this now, even though I have them in a bag)
Eldest son stayed in room saying he wished he could kill himself or run away, daughter was ok, but youngest son was still being naughty jumping on his bed etc. I ended up shaking him and smacking his bottom and was so close to losing it completely, I came downstairs and then burst into tears, feeling like my head was going to explode. It took about 15 mins to calm down, unfortunately DH was out.
I feel so awful now, I hate being in the situation, but even when they saw how upset I was they didn't seem to feel any remorse or be worried by it at all even though I'm not usually like it (its the wrong time of the month for me at the moment).
I don't know what to do any more. We try to give them everything, but they don't seem to appreciate anything we do and just spend all their time having silly arguments and winding each other up.
Sorry I just needed to get it off of my chest.

kkgirl, I've had the same situation this afternoon, DS pushing me as far as he could then finally being told, to do his hands, face and teeth before bed and ending up with a smack from me. It just gets to tiring and stressful and I do sympathise.

Droile - what age do they say to wean a baby now? 18 weeks sounds ever so late, mine both started at 6 weeks!

Oh kkgirl. How horrible that you've had such a difficult day. Don't be too hard on yourself. Kids are so hard to deal with sometimes and we all lose it every once in a while. Get a good night's sleep and then sort it all out in the morning. Maybe you could bribe them into being fantastically good by saying that they can have the bayblades back at bedtime tomorrow if they are suitably angelic all day. Otherwise they really go in the bin? Or just stick to your guns and chuck em if you feel strongly but either way I bet things'll look a bit better in the morning, especially if you can shunt them off to school for the day! You are NOT a bad mother, just someone having a bad day and it sounds like your 3 were sorely provoking to boot.

Scummymummy

Thanks for your support. The trouble is that they are like this most days and we don't have anyone to help us in a practical way. Just offloading them for a few hours now and again would help all of us, them as well as us, but all the grandparents are elderly and not in the best of health and we are all together 24 hours a day (except when they are at school of course).
The old saying two's company three's a crowd certainly is true in our situation; I'm sure if we only had two things would be much easier, but despite my moaning I couldn't bear it if we didn't have any of them. I just feel so bad, because life seems so tense all the time and I want it to be enjoyable because they are growing up fast and will want their independence. I feel such a wuss sometimes.

It sounds like you're going through a bad patch, kkgirl. You ain't no wuss. I think there are times when children's phases and events conspire to make life bloody hard. I wish there was something I could suggest. Things are difficult when you don't have any outside help and are responsible 24/7, aren't they? Is there the possibility of offloading even one of them onto the grandparents now and then, perhaps while one or both of the others visit a friend's house? How about any sisters or brothers you and dh have? Could you and dh take in turns to have one day in the weekend to yourselves? I think you're so right that a break makes all the difference.

Re: the children's behaviour, have you thought about a parenting course? I have- thought about one that is- but have never actually gone though they sound very interesting. When I'm having a bad day/week/month with my kids and finding them hard to deal with I sometimes consider it- the ones in Britain are supposed to be v groundbreaking and useful- but tend to then forget when times are better once more. Has anyone on here done one, I wonder, so they could tell us about it?
Anyway, hope things will get better for you soon, kkgirl. Take care.

Rhiannon, the WHO guidelines are to wean a fully breast-fed baby at 6 months, but not before 4 months, as the digestive system is too immature to handle solids before then. There is some evidence that allergies may be triggered by early weaning.
Have just tried talking to dh again, but it's no go.

kkgirl - complete sympathies with you. My mum always said that when she had her third, it felt like she had 4, it was so much harder work. I had a horrible day yesterday - must be something in the air and it does make you feel like a s* when you do things (scream/shout/smack) that you swore you'd never do before you had kids.

I have been on a Positive Parenting course - not sure if this is what you mean ScummyMummy. Found a lot of the information useful but common sense, if you thought about it (repeat what you want them to do again and again, don't enter into time-wasting frustrating negotiations, give only 2 options (both being desirable) etc. However, a lot of it was geared towards having some 'me' time and getting partner to pull his/her weight, which is not always possible. Plus, feel doubly guilty when ever commit any of the parenting no-no's.

kkgirl - I would think that your kids not being too unduly affected by your, completely understandable, outburst should reassure you that they've come to no lasting damage and that it's quite acceptable to be b p-off sometimes. Hope you feel a bit better now.

Chinchilla thanks, what you said is interesting. I wonder if it would do him good to be without me for a while? I think I've been so coloured by the negative experience of ds1 that I've been a bit too determined to do things differently. I take your point about the b/feeding to six months - I am pretty confused about it all. Sometimes I think the determination to breast makes us do silly things, but he seems so used to it now, and is so rejecting of everything else. The rice I gave him tonight seemed to upset him, but I know it's early days.

kkgirl, hope you're feeling better now.

I'm going to bed now. Thanks to all who have replied with sympathy and support. I still feel a complete s* especially when I think of the parents of Milly and Jessica and Holly and how they would give anything to have their girls back ( I pray that they can find the strength to carry on when their lives must have been destroyed by these horrific events) and how everything in our lives seems to revolve around the bickering and the winding up and teasing and then me of DH getting cross when they don't stop when they must know we are getting crosser and crosser.
It all seems so unfair and I really am feeling down, so I hope to wake up to a fresh start and resolve to at least try harder to sort it out in a loving and calm way without losing it - that feeling of going out of control really frightens me, I don't want it to become an everyday occurence

Droile - I started dd on baby rice and she reacted like I'd given her a lemon, and had very mild diorreah afterwards (well, she pooed more anyway). The second day I had the same facial expression, but no physical reaction and by the forth she was lapping it up. That's when she started teething...

Right, might be ok then. Talking of teething, he is starting to dribble a lot ....