Is there ever a time when you'd advise your DS to hit back?

[Saturn74]

DS2 is 8yo. He is a chatty and friendly child, quite sturdy and certainly not oversensitive IMO. We are friends with another family, who have a 9yo son. Their son taunts DS when he thinks they're out of earshot, and gets very physical with him. It starts off as rough and tumble, but soon gets out of hand, and my son often ends up getting hurt. I have waited for my friend to step in and tell her son that this behaviour is not acceptable, but she doesn't, so I now tell him. (I think I am now seen as a controlling and over-strict old witch, but hey ho!) It still doesn't stop though, and I am sick of feeling that I cannot leave this 9yo to play with my child without watching him like a hawk. My DH says that the only thing to stop this child thinking he can ride roughshod over our DS is to advise DS to retaliate physically. Is he right? I have considered stopping seeing this other family, but everyone else gets on really well, and I am loathe to give a 9yo the power to decide who we socialise with. The 9yo also makes a great show of saying how my DS2 is his best friend in front of his mother - and puts his arm round his shoulders etc. GRRRRR . Advice please.

HC, I totally agree with your DH having been in the same situation myself. With me it was DH's nephew so cutting off ties would have been impossible. It's total lack of discipline on your "friend's" part and by no means should ANY mother tolerate their child intimidating others.
Here's my advice on the basis of what I did:

• Ensure both kids play where BOTH you and your friend can see exactly what is going on.
• Tell your DS to come to you as soon as he's been hurt and tell you in front of your friend what the other child did. If your friend doesn't get embarrassed by this and discipline her son, you make a fuss and tell the other boy that this behaviour is not on and if he is going to behave violently then you will not allow your DS to play with him. Using the word "violent" should give the other mother a kick to do something. It worked for me.

If your friend wants to think you are controlling or over-strict don't worry, trust me she wouldn't think the same if it was her DS who was getting bullied. He's your son and you have every right to make him feel safe. If you feel that doesn't work then tell him you're proud of him for being such a good boy but if he's being hit then he should hit back in exactly the same way and tell the other boy to go away.

You still awake after my epic?! Sorry for going on but I hate the fact that well behaved kids suffer because there's so many other parents who don't bother disciplining there children.

Good luck and post how you get on

Yes. Mine are schooled never to make a pre-emptive strike, but that it is acceptable to defend themselves...(that is after all the law - reasonable force).

SM - that's a very interesting point, and I will broach the subject with the boys. I am obviously really upset by the situation, and I know DS2 is when it happens, but they haven't mentioned it at a later date, so maybe it's more upsetting to me as I dwell on it.

Hmmm...you've got me pondering now, and I was just going to bed!

2Cute - good strategies there. I have tried the one where I loudly comment on the other boys' behaviour as being unkind, but his mother usually defends him with one of the following comments;

sorry, but he plays rugby and he gets a bit rough / he's just like a big puppy and doesn't know his own strength / I expect it was an accident

(how, when it happened right in front of us, and her son was sat on my sons' head?????).

I will use the word "violent" as you suggest, as I do usually refer to his behaviour as rough or over the top, which does lessen the impact of how cross I really am.

Well, good luck with it all hc. Sleep well.

Interesting question generally.

DS3 went through an aggressive phase a couple of years ago when he was in Y1. As parents we did our utmost to prevent this, both at home and in conjunction with the school.....only to find certain other parents encouraging their own boys to retaliate which tbh just exacerbated the situation.

Conversely, DS1 - who had never had any problems of this nature - was attacked six months ago by a couple of lads on his way home from school (when he was in Yr 7). He was hit three times during one weekend. First time he walked away, second and third time he was knocked to the floor (and kicked) before he was able to get up and run away. One of these lads had another go a couple of weeks later and DS1 winded him and ran off. This lad had another go a couple of weeks later when he'd got his other mate in tow. DS1 floored both of them and he's had no bother since thankfully.

It's a fine line, but I would encourage younger children not to retaliate (however frustrating it is to see your own child being hurt) but also prepare older children to learn how to defend themselves - and give them permission to do so should the need arise (DS1 didn't retaliate during the above incidents until we told him to defend himself if the situation arose again, even though he had started doing karate and was learning about self-defence).

I like what laneydaye said!!
haven't read all responses so I may be repeating someone elses idea but I think it would help your ds to learn karate. That way he will be able to physically protect himself but most importantly he will learn self control and respect and discipline so he won't just turn into an aggressive nutter and also he will give off an air of self confidence which will put horrid boys off starting with him in the first place.
my dp who is 40 regrets to this day not punching his "best friend" who behaved like that 9yo.
Must go and clean up poo now!! lovely.

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bump

I think self defence classes are a great idea! I did judo from age 5-10. I was a tiny girl (smallest in school), and it gave me great confidence to be able to throw boys bigger than me, and especially when my 6 foot 3, 15 stone instructor let me throw him!

I never used judo outside (not sure I wd have been able to) but do feel that it gave me a confidence, and a philosophy, that made it much easier for me to confront bullies verbally. I'm looking at judo or Aikido for dd (3 yrs) when she gets to about 5. It made me realise that people who bullied were the losers, not me, and that I didn't need to be around them.

In the meantime I tell her to tell other children loudly to stop and that it's wrong, to refuse to play with them and walk away and tell an adult. I've told her we don't hit bad people, because it makes us just as bad.

I'm also trying to encourage her to see such behaviour as foolish (not bad or nasty) and dismiss it and the perpetrator, so that she sees she has the power not them. She's a very gentle sort of person, so I think avoidance, inner confidence and dismissal rather than confrontation is a better approach for her.

HC, you sound like you're doing a great job. I guess it depends on whether ds2 wants to go as far as refusing to play with this boy until he stops hitting him. It would be better coming from him.

Thanks Fondant.

I've spoken to DS2 and he has agreed that we will meet up with this family one more time.

If the 9yo is unkind or aggressive he will loudly go and tell his mother (my friend) instead of me.

If his mother brushes it off then I will tell her that we cannot meet up with them again until she takes responsibility for her child's behaviour.

DS1 says we will then take ourselves off to the nearest teashop for a slice of cake!

Look at us - the Cushion family kicking arse - metaphorically speaking!

Thank you for all the advice - it's reassuring to know that I wasn't going mad and being massively over-sensitive.

I wouldn't put up with the sort of behaviour from my children, and they shouldn't have to put up with it from anyone else.

So ner!

PS: Anyone got any tips for asseriveness in public places?

It sounds like a brilliant plan HC - a great solution whichever way it goes . I think you've found a way for your son to be supported and protected without either of you having to stoop to behaviour which is unworthy of you - and placed the problem where it belongs, ie with the aggressive child's mother.

Good luck, hope it goes well

HC - I remember my dd being bullied at 3 by another 3 year old little girl, and feeling so guilty because I 'chose not to protect her', rather than lose the friendship . I think that you will not regret taking action, and in the long run, you will hopefully be doing both your friend and her son a favour!! I am watching this thread as I have a 2 year old son, and now realise that I have all this to come!! The only other tactic I might use is to say to her - look, " I have a friend whose son is bullyish and fierce with DS2 - how should I handle it?" When she gives her advice - throw it right back at her. If she takes great offence, then you know that the solution would probably never have been found.. Best of luck GG.

Not read all the threads but had to post when the martial arts is a fight school came up.

It is not~!!!! Absolutely not!!! Speaking as someone who gained a black belt in Tae Kwon Do when I was 31 I wished I had gone to lessons at an early age. I was bullied only once at school until my mother spoke to the bully's mother (his mother thumped him and he never touched me again incidently), but Tae Kwon Do taught me how to avoid situations in the first place and how to defend myself not how to fight people. Any decent instructor of any martial art will advocate these lessons. Only bad instructors teach how to be violent. The whole essence of Tae Kwon Do is to help build a more peaceful world. I know some would say this is ironic but if you look at Humphrey's situation from the flip side, the little boy who hits him is getting away with it and he knows it. He knows how to be manipulative enough to not do it in front of adults so who is to say he won't grow into a real little thug when he is older. I would say once your DS has taken enough then tell him to warn the other boy that if he does it again then he's going to thump him. I don't believe in children runnin gto parents to sort out all their problems for them. If your son hits back just once and makes sure it's a good one then the other boy will get the message.

I have been thinking about this, and I think the issue is really with the other mother who seems to lack common sense.

At 9 years old the other boy should know his own strength, should be sensitive to how others react and should also be aware that rugby is a dangerous contact sport. Its one thing having a scrum as part of a game/practice or with a rugby playing friend, quite another to jump on an unsuspecting younger child.

I agree, MP. My friend and I certainly have very different parenting styles, and unfortunately it looks like our friendship will have to end because of it.

I'm fed up with the situation where my children behave well, (or are reprimanded and then apologise if there is the odd bit of overly rough play) whilst hers (her DS in particular) behave unkindly and aggressively.

DS2's main problem with it all is the lack of fairness - he thinks the 9yo should be told off by his Mum, and he is right. If this happened, then he would feel better, as he is very keen on justice being done!

A telling off from his Mum, and an apology from the 9yo would mean it was all OK for DS2, and we could move on.

DS2 reminded me today that my friend's DD (aged 8), bit him on the arm when we met up a few weeks ago, so there is obviously a discipline problem and a lack of boundaries that extends to both children IMO.

so, did your boys get their cakes??

Not had to face the situation yet, TUD!

No phone call or emails from the other family, so perhaps they realised we were 'slightly less than gruntled' about their son's behaviour last time we met?

Or maybe my friend has started an alternative thread on MN - 'I think my friend is mad and passive aggressive, and her sons are a couple of moaners!'

Off to search threads!

i think you should have cake anyway. cake is a great panacea for the soul.

i don't actually know what that means, but it sounds cool.

In fact, 'panacea' could almost BE a cake in its' own right! Quick, copyright it Urban!

Panacea Soul Cake - yum!

mmm....sounds like it should have lots of cream an possibly choux pastry.

i want cake now. GIVE ME CAKE SOMEONE!!!!!!