Is there ever a time when you'd advise your DS to hit back?

[Saturn74]

DS2 is 8yo. He is a chatty and friendly child, quite sturdy and certainly not oversensitive IMO. We are friends with another family, who have a 9yo son. Their son taunts DS when he thinks they're out of earshot, and gets very physical with him. It starts off as rough and tumble, but soon gets out of hand, and my son often ends up getting hurt. I have waited for my friend to step in and tell her son that this behaviour is not acceptable, but she doesn't, so I now tell him. (I think I am now seen as a controlling and over-strict old witch, but hey ho!) It still doesn't stop though, and I am sick of feeling that I cannot leave this 9yo to play with my child without watching him like a hawk. My DH says that the only thing to stop this child thinking he can ride roughshod over our DS is to advise DS to retaliate physically. Is he right? I have considered stopping seeing this other family, but everyone else gets on really well, and I am loathe to give a 9yo the power to decide who we socialise with. The 9yo also makes a great show of saying how my DS2 is his best friend in front of his mother - and puts his arm round his shoulders etc. GRRRRR . Advice please.

Um, if a child is routinely hit by their parents, how on earth would they know to fight another adult who tried to hurt them?

'cos it's not their parents!!

This thread isn't about smacking.

God no, been there done that, .

Jalexandra I think every one of us would teach our kids to bite punch kick or do whatever they needed to to get away from an adult that was attacking/trying to snatch etc them.
But that's nothing like teaching them to hit back at a child that hit them first, and that is what we're talking about isn't it? Bullies that use physical violence to bully other kids.
In that situation there really is no need at all for physical retaliation and teaching a child to retaliate that way is only giving them the message that violence is their first port of call when they're threatened.

Airy, I don't think it should be their 'first port of call'. I think it should be one option that is available. As adults we are not in that situation and it is easy to forget that some children will not respond to more subtle methods. I don't want my children to be helpless. I don't condone violence but sometimes kids need to be allowed to defend themselves in a way that works, not in a way that fits in with the parents ideals.

Littlerach, thanks, we are v. near Melksham. I will start looking around. Now I can legally drive without a minder things should be a lot easier.

Totally agree with the person who said that your DS should shout 'stop hitting me!' in a loud voice. If that doesn't improve the situation, you should stop taking your DS round there as he is being manipulated by this kid.

There are times, increasingly as children get older when recourse to an adult is much more limited . Children need to be able to defend themselves and sometimes the only effective way is to give as good as they get.

Wow, been out for the day, and this thread has really moved on! Thanks for the advice. My son does the 'don't hit me' or 'I don't like that' thing, but I am always the one who intervenes, not the mother of the 9yo. My sons also do martial arts - karate - but have been instructed not to use it outside their karate club. I think we'll just have to stop seeing this family, but I'm not looking forward to the conversation when I explain why.

Re ScummyMummy's post - DS1 used to be picked on by this 9yo too, but got really fed up of him about three months ago, and threw him to the ground. The 9yo has since moved his unwelcome attentions to DS2. I have always told them not the be physical with people, but have to admit that I was rather pleased when DS1 sorted the 9yo old! DS2 is a different, gentler soul though, and I'm not convinced that telling him to physically stand up for himself would be effective. DS1 is also much louder, and would draw attention to when 9yo is getting over the top. DS2 used to be bullied at school, so tends to just accept being picked on - which breaks my heart.

Have to apologise - have just read op and skimmed through the rest, so am going to ignore arguments and just give my opinion.

I've been in what would seem a similar situation - a boy bullied DS1 when he was 7. But this was at school and we were working with the school, so he wasn't allowed to hit back. The situation sorted itself out, although I have to admit crying tears of relief when the boy transferred out. Still think we did the right thing - as long as us adults were working on it, he shouldn't hit. However, in your situation, I'd let him hit back. He's old enough to know the difference between what's self defense and not and will probably use violence (well, that's what it is) appropriately. Tell him he's allowed to, but he needs to tell you as soon as possible and that you'll go from there.

Poor duck - really feel for him. DS1 has a friend with whom things get way too physical way too quickly - luckily we can do tag team parenting with them (ie "Your turn to make them stop") - I highly recommend only one adult dealing with a situation and just backing up their response, but of course I was very lucky with my friend and her similar parenting. It's much harder otherwise and you have my sympathy as this is not your situation.

DS2 on the other hand - he's five years old and is not allowed at all to hit back. He's just too young to understand self defense. I've kind of dealt with this with him -- his reply to "What's the best thing today" was, yesterday, "No one hit me". Luckily Master Hitter has left the school. Cue most parents (well, except those whose kids are pretty physical themselves, iykwim) breathing a huge sigh of relief. Anyway, he was required to go tell the teacher and we avoided any playdates with him like the plague.

Sorry - just previewed and last bit was a rant. Am leaving as it makes me feel better.

HumphreyCushion - sorry, crossposted and just reread my rambling post.

Think he's old enough to know the difference between defending himself and not was my point. And you seem really sensible about it all - so go with what feels right to you.

Hi - I have to say that DS (aged 6) will always thump back when thumped, even by a bigger child, and although I try and encourage him to be "reasonable", part of me is very relieved he can give as good as he gets. It may not be politicaly correct, but at least I know he won't get bullied. On the other hand DD (3) is very easy going and often hands over her sweets, toys etc to other children on demand, which sometimes makes me wince. Some may think its lovely to not stand up for yourself, but I worry about her being pushed around at school if she doesn't toughen up a bit.

I think it takes an immense amount of will power to turn the other cheek, even as an adult and its rare to see a child able to do that.

I think the problem is that my friend and I have such different parenting styles. I have no problem with another adult telling my children if they are out of order, but my friend is not happy if I reprimand her son. She does not reprimand him herself though, and I'm hardly going to stand there whilst my child is hurt - either physically or verbally. I have tried talking to the 9yo and saying that it is unacceptable to hurt people, but he just told me that I am too strict and I don't like having fun. If my child said that to another adult I'd be mortified, but his mother made no comment. I think I knew that I would have to stop my children and her children getting together, but wanted to hear the views of other MNetters. Very sad situation, and I worry how this 9yo child will cope as he gets older. A few boundaries and a few consequences now would mean so much to him, I think.

Dont know whether this been mentioned, but if you and the other family are going to meet up can your ds have another friend around at the same time? Maybe if this happens often enough and the other mum asks why you have other kids round too you can "laughingly" - through gritted teeth- joke that your son needs a little protection! At the same time your ds may get a little confidence from having someone else there too.

dd1 was getting bullied at school for ages, went to the school who said they would deal with it, they didnt,went to the schhol about 3 more times, still didnt get sorted. dh told dd1 that next time this particular girl started on her that she was to thump her. Which dd1 did. And ended up in detention for a week. But she hasnt been bullied since then so whilst I dont necessarily agree with hitting back sometimes I think its the only way to go.

My nephew aged 6 is hitting kids and my sister is distraught about it. She has been doing everything she can with him. His behaviour improves when he spends lots of time playing with his cousins because we parents try not to interfere if poss and the kids don't let him away with it. They say he can't play with them if he is going to be too rough.
He is also only a child who feels small inside for some reason and has to fight with all his strength. children bully for a reason. I don't like my nephews behaviour but I do love him. I think my sister is too hard on him.

It is interesting that those of you who have mentioned the times when your childfen have actually stood up for themselves physically also conclude that the outcome was a good one.
These things are true that is why I tell my kids that if all else fails hit back, it works.

Obviously there are situations where anybody, male or female needs to learn self defence. However, if you go out in a town centre on a Saturday night, I think the majority of fights are caused by people not knowing when to walk away. Many school fights also escalate because somebody didn't know when to let things lie (remember that story a few months ago where one girl slashed another girl's face with a pencil sharpener?). I certainly think that DS will be far safer as a teenager/young adult if he doesn't think that every time things get a bit rough the only way he can defend his 'manliness' is to get into a fight, and I don't think it will help to encourage this kind of behaviour now.

I would teach my child to repond in this situation with an assertive 'I don't like that, don't hit me'. Afterall, some kids do enjoy 'play fighting' and may not realise that the other child isn't enjoying the rough and tumble.

If the aggressor continues the child should come straight to you or another safe adult and explain the situation (if possible - which it sounds like it is). You then need to tell your friend if she does not repremand her son that 'it is unacceptable for my son to be bullied, if the situation is not resolved then my son cannot play with yours' and if you must continue bringing him around to visit this friend then he should bring a book or toy to occupy himself in the same room as you.

But honestly, if it was me and my friend did not understand it was necessary to protect my son from physical assault, it would be the end of that friendship.

I think the idea of your child learning defensive martial arts so that if he is attacked when there are no 'safe' adults around he can avoid being hurt and disable his attacker for long enough to get to safety away, is a good one. The added confidence he will have will make him a less likely target. You should choose a local teacher who emphasises control and defense to avoid your son turning into a bully himself.

Can't ds1 step in a bit to protect ds2 then, hc? i used to do that for my sister. it was kind of the done thing. I sort of vaguely expect my twins to stick up for each other if one is picked on too.

Yes, SM, DS1 will certainly intervene, and has done on several occasions. He's very good at loudly telling the 9yo to "stop hurting DS2 - what is your problem" etc. I don't want to have to make it so that he follows him around to protect DS2 all the time though - these are supposed to be our friends! So I think I've solved my own issues here. My first responsibility is obviously to my children, and I need to tell my friend that we can't meet them at the moment, as her DS is causing too much unhappiness. I am really proud of the way my children have dealt with this situation, and enough is enough.

It's all time and place, isn't it? There's a right time and right place for physical retaliation - it's not often and children must be old enough and aware enough to understand the distinction for it even to be an option. Normal adults don't bash the person who bumped into them, even if it was aggressive bump but will defend themselves if someone hits them - I think this sort of differentiation is learned or just happens at different ages, but much earlier than what we think of as an adult age.

Anyway, just whittering now - my advice is to go with what you feel is right. You seem very sensible, have thought this all through and only you know this particular situation.

Sounds like they are doing great with it, tbh, hc. Are they actually as upset about it as you and dh? I've found that sometimes my partner and I will be horrified at things that the boys aren't really thast bothered about. And it sounds like your 2 are on the cusp of victory to me! A few more menacing growls of "leave my bro alone or I'll lamp you" from ds1 coupled with ds2 getting confident enough to tell this kid to lay off in his own right might yet solve the problem. Maybe it would be worth really consulting them on whether they think this kid is a nightmare who they can't cope with or a squit who can be conquered and take your decision from there?