How can I help my kids to not be like me?

[Whyamisocrap]

Hello wise MN'ers.

I need some advice please. I'm feeling a bit sad and overwhelmed by this but don't know how to deal with it.

I have, pretty much my whole life, been ignored/invisible, and I am worried now that my kids are being affected in the same way.

I have always been the owe to make an effort, and then find myself being the one left out, so if I'm talking to someone and another person comes along, instead of the conversation being a three way thing it usually turns into a two way thing with me on the periphery. That in a nutshell sums things up. This has really affected my confidence and although I still try and make an effort with people, this keeps happening and I really don't want the same thing for my children.

My DD who is 6, is often excluded from games at play times at school. She will ask if she can join in, but the 'leader' of the game often says NO. Recently the school had a competition and she wanted to join a group, and again was told no, so she gave up. I try and encourage her to join another group, but she has been told No so often that I think she is now at the stage where she says she' drat her play by herself. She does have some friends that she really likes but the same happens with her and if anyone else joins the group, they go off and she gets left behind.

I have spoken to her teacher about this and she says that my Dd is very friendly and polite and not bossy or overbearing, so she doesn't understand why this might be. She has tried to help my Dd by talking to her about it, but my Dd doesn't want to 'tell on anyone' which is what she thinks she would be doing by talking about what happens. My DD is at a girls school.

My DS is still at nursery, and seems to be happy and has lots of lovely friends. He has also made a friend at my DDs school with a boy who is there at pick up time. He has played nicely with him, and I have never noticed that the other boy doesn't like my DS. Today though, this boy was there with one of his friends. My DS went to play with home, after asking me if he could go and play with his friend. But the boy was just rude to my DS. Whenever my DS tried to talk to him, he just covered his ears and told him to go away. My DS is only 4 so he kept running back to me a bit confused, but then would go back. I watched and this happened about 4 times. In the end I told DS not to go back as the boy was being a bit rude and that he didn't want to play with DS. DS was a bit upset by this as he is used to playing with this boy, most days. Again, my DS isn't bossy or rude or overbearing.

Anyway, I am really struggling with this as I don't know how best to help my Dc. I don't know whey this sort of thing happens with such young children, but I know it does.

How can I help my Dc deal with these sorts of things, so that they don't grow up feeling like I do. That I am somehow unlikeable and only useful as a last resort. This is really how I feel. People will talk to me , but only if there are no other options. I know this is life and you have to just ignore it and get on with it, but I am so upset and feel like a crap mum who can't help her kids. I really want them to be able to just be more confident and self assured than I am, as it's not much fun living your life wondering why you're not good enough.

I went to bed about 3 hours ago and couldn't sleep, so decided I'd come here for help.

Thankyou for reading this apologies for the rambling nature of this. I can't quite form sentences as I am genuinely upset about this.

I'm not sure I can help, but bumping anyway.

I think keeping their confidence up, plenty of praise might help. when they're rejected, try to keep turning it away from your kids like you did with the rude kid.

Thankyou

it's quiet on here this time of night but if you bump your thread tomorrow after 9 am I'm sure there'll be people about who can help with this.

it's heartbreaking, I have a child who's very social but other kids don't seem to want to let him chuck any of his ideas in when they do allow him to play in their groups. Quite often he's left out. I feel guilty because we're not very sporty and I think this is why he's considered different.

Heartbreaking is a really good way of describing how I feel.

I'm sorry your son also has this. I suppose it's good to know what it might be, but then again, you don't want to have to change who they are. It's hard isn't it.

Thanks though, for chatting to me. It helps knowing it's not just me or my dc that feel this way.

This seems to be my stock response at the moment!

I really like Elizabeth Crary books. The range and many similar books are interactive and let you work with your child to explore all sorts of feelings and situations. They're a really helpful tool for social emotional development.
Part of the friendship books we have are playtime manners - this is still useful in your dc's case not because they are doing anything wrong (although confidence building will be helpful) but to illustrate to them age appropriately that sometimes other people do confusing or mean things for their own reasons and it is not a reflection on them.

Please don't beat yourself up and feel guilty. For one thing you have honest (if negative) personal insight and the courage to want to change things - that is a valuable, valuable tool to pass on. Self awareness is surprisingly lacking in many.
Also, have you sought any help about how you feel? When our confidence takes constant knocks we get into a self perpetuating cycle of situations that reinforce that feeling.

You aren't invisible. You have wonderful children, you are articulate and able and important. You have worth. You've done a wonderful job of raising happy, friendly, polite children who are doing well at school/nursery - you did that.
What you need is to believe that truth and not the false feelings low confidence and social awkwardness make us feel, ditch the bitches and find friends who deserve you .
Do you have much time to meet adults that aren't at the school gate? Ime although some forge firm friendships the school gate club is a shallow pool.
It sounds glib, I understand how you feel but if you could see yourself through other eyes you wouldn't recognise your description of yourself.

Read the chimp paradox by Dr. Stephen Peters. cannot recommend enough.

I think one of the main problems are your own feelings here.
I was grand in primary school but was dreadfully verbally bullied and ostracised in secondary school. When my daughter turned eleven I found I couldn't cope any time she told me she had been left out of something or picked on in any way. When she was older she told me it hadn't been so bad but my reaction was making it worse.

What is happening to your children sounds reasonably normal and I think has happened to most children at some point. But if the children pick up on your upset, they will feel it all the more.

Meanwhile you have this distressing feeling of always being left out, which could well be more of a feeling than reality. No, people like you and I are never going to be Miss Popularity, but that doesn't mean that we are as alone as we sometimes feel. So maybe you should think of getting some counselling to help you with this.

Hello again.
Just woken up and feel slightly less sad about it this morning.

That's also what happens to my DD. When she is 'allowed' to join in she also isn't heard.

I just want them to be more resilient to it than I was/am.

Xx

Thankyou all for your replies.

In a way it's good to know that this is normal.

I was never bullied in school. I was honestly just ignored. I can see a lot of myself in my children, and when I say I don't want them to be like me I do believe that, but I realise that this might be making things worse.

I will definitely look at the books you recommend and am truly grateful for all your replies.

Also, I was feeling very sad last night and ForForksAche, thank you for helping me feel heard. I actually did manage to fall asleep, although I've woken up looking like a puffy eyed mess today. But I can blame the hayefever IF anyone notices.

Thank you again. MN is such a super supportive place!

Xxx

glad you got some sleep in the end!

keep bigging them up, if they have good self esteem the knocks will be easier on them.

What your children are experiencing at school and nursery is just normal behaviour at that age, friendships forged and broken. Children finding out who they like etc. This might be getting mixed up in your mind with how you see yourself, I have to say you are not invisible and you are very articulate.
You gave an example about when a third person joins the conversation, is it that they ignore you or is it that you get worried and clam up, not knowing what to say?
I'm not sure of the way forward for you but I do think you need some support to help you gain some self esteem as this will in turn help your children. I think that the way you feel about yourself is preventing you from forging friendships rather than other people not wanting to.

Good Luck

hi Durham

re the third person thing, almost every single time this happens, the third person joins in and then they start talking about stuff that they do/did together, in jokes and the like. Last week there was an example where I was talking to one mum, then another one arrived at school, and immediately the one I had been talking to started talking to her about plans that a few of them had for a night out. but they almost started whispering and talking in code. that's the sort of thing that happens a lot. then, I stand there wondering if I should go or leave them to it. but as they're busy chatting I can't quite bring myself to interrupt them so I get stuck feeling like a lemon. that's a pretty typical example of how things are.

you are right though that it is probably something to do with me. I would love for my children to just not be bothered by this sort of stuff and would love for them to have the confidence to just walk away.

it is definitely good to know this is normal behaviour at this age, but I just want to help my DC to be more confident and I suppose resilient to it.

in terms of help for me, I've had counselling and was told the same things that I have been here, i.e. that its not me but I somehow am still convinced that it is, and that it is because of me, that my kids are affected. the rational part of me knows that it cant be that, but as soon as things like this happen to me or I see it happening to my DC, I am immediately transported back to that very familiar place of just not feeling good enough.

another example of my 'invisibility' is if I'm standing watching something, I am always careful to not stand in the way of other people watching. but, people will often come and ark themselves in front of me, as if I don't actually exist. it's quite laughable really as it happens pretty much every single time.

I will be more mindful to not project my feelings onto my DC. I can imagine that maybe I am making things into a bigger deal for them than they are.

thanks for all you r help everyone. xxx

that's just rudeness from a couple of playground divas. if you get people behaving like that, it's them, not you drop them.

Have you evert tried cbt? I think it could really help you gain a different perspective on situations and then you can pass this on to your kids.
You need to role model for them. Google mood gym for online resources.

You sound absolutely lovely to me, very thoughtful and kind. A great mum too. If people are talking in code around you then they are really very rude people and you should not waste your time with them. You probably wouldn't like them anyway once you got to know them

I have ben referred for counselling twice for anxiety and both times it was supposed to be CBT. I'm not sure if the sort of counselling I had was CBT or not. We talked alot. I was reassured alot but I didn't really get the 'tools' my GP mentioned to help me deal with things with a different mindset. I'll definitely check out the Mood Gym link. Thanks.

about the mums in the playground, I know they were being rude, but I feel too rude to just walk away, as I was involved in the conversation up to a certain point. LOL. My DD is exactly the same, she doesn't want to be rude to anyone, even if they are bloody rude to her.

xxx

This is really interesting, I have been struggling with similar things and my children too.

My 16 year old now believes that people exclude others and basically it's their choice, you can't change it. I personally feel that sometimes you need to be pushy, it's not a negative thing, it sometimes means fighting for a friend as the person in the middle is just as torn. I think you do need to put in to get out, so simple things like being approachable and smiling are important, asking people about themselves. When you think someone's interloping? Use tactics like blocking them with your body and not allowing them to interrupt. Obviously only if it's worth it, and you know you are being pushed. You don't want to come across as unhinged!

On a wider level i let others decide whether they want to spend time with me so I invite lots of people to an event and see who turns up. I find that the people who know me best do turn up, same with Facebook. People who are very like me, gentle and slightly deferential, are the people who share and that's been quite empowering in itself. In some ways I've shaken off the ones who are pushy.

I once read that the best thing for a shy child is to put them with another shy child. When my dcs were excluded I told them to look for another quiet person. This hasn't actually worked well so I'm now trying to get them to be a bit more forward. The trouble is in today's schools the quiet ones are simply co-opted into a group.

School culture is sadly very lacking, playgrounds are fierce for children and parents have been brought up in the same environment. For this reason I have found that I revert to the non English families, who often have more traditional values of politeness, or the slightly quirkier characters. I leave the queen bee types and their groups well alone.

I think being listened to is a basic human need, having a friend is worth fighting for and you can do that without being part of a pecking order. I have found Facebook a great way to see that people have circles that overlap and that usually it's not personal if someone excludes you, people just don't have time to share with everyone.

Sorry about the essay, it has been good to think this through.

I know the third person thing- it happened to me in the last 24 hours! The other two are very nice people but I didn't realise they knew one another, very much a lemon moment!

The code talking people are rude but the behaviour is not uncommon- do remember it's them not you!

To be understanding of them:

There is a limited amount of time to grab the parent you want to make arrangements with (although mobile phones mean I don't have to butt in much these days, I have in the past but with an "excuse me may I just have a word with Sue") They haven't got the confidence to be straightforward or the social skills to do what they want seamlessly and courteously. TBH I rarely meet people who do have enviable social skills!

The uncooperative boy in the playground was a moment to teach your son to shrug his shoulders, "So X doesn't want to play today." Make any explanation of the situation temporary and not personal to your child. Then it's time to engage in something else - me listening attentively to chat about Pokemon if it was one of mine!

re playground divas, slightly off topic, but I think some of them don't have the resilience to stand alone. Being able to be on your own and not feel socially awkward is a useful thing imo.

I think this sort of thing happens to everyone.

Especially at the playground, where you sometimes just have to go and ask someone if they can pick up your child tomorrow, or if little James is going to karate, or if Elisa has maybe taken DD's jumper. then there are social groups, who also happen to have kids at the same school, sop they ask/talk about social outings that any other random mum standing by the group is "excluded" from.

I have often been the lemon. But have also lemonised people, I am sure!

Oh and in answer to your original question, if your children are sensitive and thoughtful like you that is a thing to celebrate. You might want them to suffer less discomfort than you have but that's not to say their essence ought to be radically different from yours.

I think with the 3rd person thing, I am inclined to agree with others who have said that it isn't you, but perhaps your own politeness and not wanting to be rude is not helping. Maybe what you need to do is actually point it out to them in a jokey way? i.e. Just saying "Eh Hello! I am still here you know?!?!" I think they would probably say, "Oh Sorry, we were being rude!" and change the subject to include you, but if they throw you a look then you probably don't want to associate with them anyway. I think that maybe you are allowing yourself to be invisible rather than them necessarily ignoring you iyswim?

I'm not saying it's easy, maybe a good way to start is to be the person that starts the conversation when the 3rd person arrives? i.e. You say hello and then say, "I was just saying to X about Y, what do you think?" or something similar and therefore not allowing them to cut you out?

And re your children, they are taking their lead from you and I am sure they are lovely well brought up children and I would prefer to have them around mine more than the confident overbearig sort any day. But maybe they just need to boost their confidence and resiliance a bit and be comfortable in their own skin.

....and people do the same to me re the standing in front thing, I am very careful to be considerate of others and have taught my children the same, unfortunately it makes you into a doormat :(

I hope you're feeling a little better. I think it's all about confidence and self esteem.

To answer your original question, I think you need to model/talk about how to react when a 'friend' leaves you out or sidelines you.

With your ds at the school I might have said (not in a whisper either) ohh he's not being a a good friend today, or, oh, he's super excited to see his other friend today (then distract, distract) or even, go up to the older friend and say, my ds is really wanting to play with you today can you let him join in (do it in a way in which he knows he must let ds join in). The great thing about 4year olds is they have no embarrassment about someone sorting out a friend for them. I'd say you can still do that for a 6 year old too.

And if the boys mother is there? So what. Most mums want their children to have good manners, a very gentle pull up on that by another mum is very ok by me.

I think I'm becoming more confident as I get older. I'm more easily able to shrug things like the one sided 3some off. It hurts a little but I don't dwell on it. And sometimes I stick up for myself too. If I feel someone joined a conversation and took it over and ignored me, I might start to ask them questions to force them to a knowledge that I'm in the conversation too -ah, I didn't know you were at that gym/were on the PTA etc hows that going? Its effortful but worth it.

One last thing, most of the time people aren't being intentionally rude, they're just busy and squeezing lots in to little time. You need to work on your self a little to get out of the habit flu thinking that you are ignored or invisible because you are not good enough. YOU ARE GOOD ENOUGH.

Unreal housewife, thanks for your reply. You make a lot of interesting points. I don't have a facebook account but it's interesting that it has helped you understand the dynamic.

I am quite happy in my own company I suppose, but I do try and make an effort with people as I think it's good for my dc to see me interacting. I think I am confident in that sense to not stop trying.

I have often wondered if it's something that my dc are doing wrong, but I really do t think they are. The only thing that they do is 'take it'. I recently had a chat with my Dd and said to her that if someone if being mean or rude that it's okay to tell them they are. She then told me that at school one day, a girl told her she couldn't join in, and DD was frustrated so told the girl she was being mean and walked off. The girl ran after Dd and apologised and has never done it again since. DD dealt with it by herself and for that girl it changed things.

It's funny isn't it? I don't know what it is about people that makes them say NO. I haven't worked for a few years but often had managers who would often say no to requests for time off or whatever. In the end I learned to just tell them rather than ask them, and they were always fine with it afterwards. Is it almost like giving them the power by asking?

Xxx

I should have said, I also make an effort as I enjoy talking to people and am always interested in other people. I don't do it just to show my dc that I can, if that makes sense.