Can't cope with my 6 yo anymore - what help could I get?

[PolyesterBride]

My 6 yo DD's behaviour is more and more out of control. Her tantrums, which are almost daily, are so extreme and violent I have no clue what to do. She goes totally mad - throwing things everywhere, pulling stuff off shelves, ripping things off walls, hitting us, screaming (for hours), crying, kicking, smashing things - anything just to react in a violent temper.

I don't know what to do about it. It is ruining our family life and I need to get help. I have approached the health visitor (when she was younger - she has ajways been like this to an extent) and the school nurse - both have given me parenting techniques. I have also been on a parenting course. None of this has really helped even though I try to apply the techniques - praising good behaviour, ignoring bad - but you can't ignore being hit.

The things that trigger her behaviour are nothing in particular I don't think - just bring told to do something (eg get dressed) / stop something (eg jumping on the bed).

I am totally at odds with my DP on how to deal with her. He thinks we should get tough - take her toys away, lock her outside etc and he thinks I am too soft. I think we need to reassure her that she is loved because to me she seems insecure and anxious. Today he said he wanted to put her I to care. He also thinks her problems are all my fault - I had a bad childhood and didn't grow up with a mother so I'm probably not the most natural or demonstrative parent. He and I bicker constantly which doesn't help the atmosphere. We can't break up though because I am terminally ill. Anyway I don't really want to - I just want us all to be happy.

Anyway the point of this huge essay is to ask whether anyone knows of any help we could access. We keep discussing child psychologists or family therapy but neither of us really knows what those things are or his we could find them. We don't have much money but would pay privately if necessary. We are in the north west.

I could approach the school nurse again but as DD1 is perfect at school, I don't hold out much hope of getting help there.

Sorry for all the typos - am on my phone.

Oh gosh I feel for you, it sounds ver stressful. Does she know you are terminally ill? Do you ever talk to her about it? She may be very anxious and fearful and this is how it is manifesting itself (just a thought)

Yes I was just about to add something about that - I don't think this is related to my illness. She has ajways been like this and actually she doesn't know I am terminally ill. She knows I go to the hospital and take medicine but for now most things are as usual - I still go to work, pick her up from school etc. But I am trying not to be secretive about it because I know that can cause problems.

Thanks for your reply.

So sorry to hear what a hard time you are having.

5yo DS can be similar, although he's more even-handed in that he's bad at school too, so we are being helped to access help that way.

Have you tried asking your GP for a referral? Here (SW London) we have a single referral process, so he will get assessed by whichever specialist seems most appropriate.

Also, have you tried the Lovebombing book? That's been helpful in reassuring DS he is much-loved and also in repairing our relationship. Given you presumably have a limited time left together, that might be your immediate priority?

Forgot to say, you could try asking on the special needs boards here. They recommend The Explosive Child a lot, although that wasn't so helpful for DS as he seems to need us to be very firmly in charge, and that's more about allowing them to have some negotiated power.

Sorry to hear this. I have a 6 y/o DD and also grew up without a Mum/ on a neglectful home. It is NOT your fault. My DD can be the same at times, she does not like to listen when I say 'no'. Some practical things you could do:

• Visit the GP and ask for SEN assessment (?), just to rule that out.
• Google private family counselling in your area, or for you as a Mum (really helped me to have one: one)
• Find a local family centre, take DD to a group there

-Counselling for her on her own?

• An activity like arts/ crafts or football, to help her let go of some the aggression ? My DD likes art, she expresses herself in a book I never look at and is her private space.

Hope some of that helps.

Thanks everyone. Hadn't thought of the GP, don't know why. Will have a look at those books too.

We do have a limited time left (don't know how much, not only months probably but a low number of years) so, yes, I think reassuring her she is loved is crucial. But DP says I will leave behind a messed up child, just as I am/was.

I am sorry that your DP is saying such awful things to you. Personally I don't think that is necessarily true at all. You describe yourself as "probably not the most natural mother" but you sound like a terrific mother- you have absolutely put your finger on it yourself, she needs reassurance that she is loved. (And my god, don't we all!) And you need a bit of help as well. I'm the mother of a 6 year old DD myself and good grief it can be hard going some days: add terminal illness into the mix and it is no surprise that things are tough.
I strongly recommend going to the GP without her and explaining that you would like a referral to some kind of child psychologist or family therapy pronto. If they can't help, go through the school nurse. Ask what facilities are available to you to help a clearly unhappy little girl. Children are like little sponges, she will be picking up concerns about your health even if you have not discussed it with her directly. You and your DP bickering all the time will also be distressing for her. I really hope you can get some outside help.

Ok - here is a tried and tested way of dealing with this (from a professional kid/teen wrangler).

Check if she is being bullied at school - always a good place to start.

Ruke 1: keep calm at all costs. If she has a tantrum, or is rude, or smashes something, don't get angry, threaten dire punishments or lose control. If you feel as if you are going to start yelling, remember something that you have to do in another room and count to 10 (or 100).

Rule 2: no bickering with DP. Kids really get upset by this and can act out.

If she breaks something - if it's hers, it will not be replaced and if it it someone elses, she will pay to get it fixed/replaced (pocket money or chores).

Start with her bedroom. OK, she's a 'big girl' now, time for a big girl clearout! Go through all the toys and tat, and box up the things that are broken and not age appropriate (she can keep a shoe box, or specified number of 'special' things). The stuff to go can donated to a charity of ebayed (or you pretend to and throw/give to charity) with the money going to her as pocket money which she 'earns back' by keeing the room tidy. Maybe 50p a week after a 'check' to make sure that clothes and toys are put away, books are tidy and bed is made. Make it sound like a fantastic activity - all very positive and about her.

This helps her feel a bit more in control of her own space and also gives her a calm place to chill.

Next - decide what 'rules' will be put in place. Write them up! What positive behaviour do you want? Bed time, helping about the house (emptying wastepaper basket, feeding the goldfish, taking her dinner plate to the sink, finishing her meals...). There will be a 'fine' for not following the rules - a penny or half penny which you dutifully wite down. She can 'earn' pennies by being polite, getting dressed for school on time, folding her clothes, making her bed etc, or just a general 'reward' eg she gives a toddler back their toy that they dropped in a store without prompting.

Going to bed without a squeek earns pennies too. The 'bad' stuff is fined:
You 'can you please take this to daddy?'
DD 'no - won't!'
You 'ok, that's rude and its a fine... 1p'
DD 'nooooooooooooo'
You '2p, (pause for 5 seconds as long as the tantrum continues) 3p...pause...ok, slamming the door is another 10p...I can do this alllll day!'

It goes on like this - the first few times will be doozies but the key is for you to be calm and not get upset/angry/emotional. If anything, be slightly bemused 'such a big girl...oh well, another penny fine for being rude...'

If the has a major tantrum, ignore her. Take yourself away or ask her to go to her room as she is disturbing your nice cup of tea with DP. Look lovingly at your DP and ask of he would get you a nice bikky to go with your cuppa. He nicely says 'rich tea or hobnod, dearest?'. This really confuses the child as it is not the reaction she wants! She wants sparks, drama, emotion, then the whole comedown, tears, apologies and cuddles. Don't feed the flames - ignore the tantrum. Focus on something else completely - you are not prepared to talk to her until she has simmered down, and that's that. Obviously, as long as she isn't in danger.

Balance with loads of praise - 'you got dressed for school all by yourself and I didn't have to ask you! Great!!!'

You will be in control and kids understand pennies! You need a calm home - you are not well! She also needs a calm home - I know you know this, but the years ahead will be tough for her with you being ill and maybe not being around. If you have a calm, 'safe' home then you can deal better with whatever life throws at you.

Make sure that you and your DP go through the ground rules when you are alone. Agree to work as a team (kids can see where there's a chink in the wall and explpit that). Be consistent, and loving to the child - but firm, calm and follow the rules.

You are the parent and need to be in control. She will kick against any new regime and expect behaviour to flare up but it will calm down, I promise. You can do this!

Being tough will not work, nor will being too soft. Yes, tell her you love her to pieces but that when she has a tantrum you are confused because you don't understand why. She probably won't be able to explain why she does this. Tell her that these rules are for the family, and to help her be a big girl.

Each week, check the earnings and fines. You can 'fake' results so that she earns a few pennies/pounds each week and praise her to high heaven. She won't remember the scores anyway. 'What??? We owe you 97p this week! Goodness, you have been on great form! Maybe next week, mummy and daddy will win ths race and you will owe us some pennies!!'.

Work as a team with your DP. It will be worth it.

Wow thank you so much for the detailed reply. Will go over it all carefully after kids in bed. Really helpful, thank you.

Let me know if you have any qs.

It's simple enough but effective if you are consistent and follow the plan.

You will have days when you just can't be bothered/sleep deprived/fed up, so that is where working as a team really helps! She will have days when she is an angel and some when she is a tazmanian devil.

Take it a day at a time. Make sure that you have time with your DP - go for a walk, have a movie and pizza night with the kids farmed out for the night, have a laugh... Or life will revolve around the behaviour of one litle person.

Oh and it's not her mothering that is the cause. How silly of your DP to suggest this.

Most likely she feels insecure because of arguments at home - and sadly this type of behaviour causes a whole load of them.
You are going through your own 'stuff' and that's hard enough without a small person to deal with.

Hitting is an automatic large-amount pence fine. Make sure she knows this up front.

Also use distraction - if you feel that she is on the boil, distract. 'Look, did you see that dog in a hat?!', 'was that the phone?', 'ohhhhh, I left my biscuit in the loo!'. The weirder, the better.

Try to avoid the 'don't do...' Or 'stop...'. Try to turn it into a positive, so 'stop playing with those toys, I told you to put them away' is 'quick! Dinner's almost on the table! See if you can clear all that up in 2 minutes.' (Reward with 1p or fine where necessary).

I was a therapist a while back and am not 'sold' on therapy for children. I was trained to treat them, but rarely did - very specialised, and sometimes too quickly advised. Obviously, it can be extremely beneficial for some circumstances/conditions but I would advise parents to try to 'mend' the home environment and their relationship/outlook/parenting techniques as a first course of action.

Why the reservations about therapy for children, nicename? Is it just not very effective? (Just interested because that's obviously one possible route and I have just booked a gp appt.) Thanks.

I feel - and this is just me, now - that sometimes it is used too early on, rather than attempting to make changes in the home environment.

A child can be 'labelled', or singled out at school and I feel that this could not exactly help their self esteem, especially if there isn't a 'name' to their condition.

There most definately are cases where it is necessary and very valuable, but I do feel that where the cause may very well be family stresses, fracture, that by trying to mend this, the child can become a calmer, happier and more confident child as a result.

If the child is not in danger (ie in a dangerous family environment) I would suggest trying the above out as a trial.

Speak to your GP - any referral will take a while anyway! In the meantime....!

Ok that makes sense.

One thing we struggle with is the "send her to her room" advice. She simply won't go and would stand there and scream in our faces. I've tried brazening it out but she can ajways outlast me. The only way to get her to go to her room is to drag her (literally - I know it's awful but she is too big for me to carry her and she will grab on to things with her hands all the way up while laughing in a really hysterical way). Then I have to stand there holding the door as she destroys her room (which she shares with her sister) and kicks and punches the (cheap and flimsy) doors. It can go on for ages but if I let go of the handle she is out of the door in seconds. It is a real nightmare, especially if I am slone with the girls at home.

It seems obvious that avoidance (like distraction) is the best strategy but sometimes it just gets to that point.

That is where the fine system works. Don't physically restrain her (unless she is at danger of hurting herself or others). If she is laughing, then she has the control - your full attention and you have lost the control.

If she kicks off:
'That is very rude... That's a 1p fine...2p...3p..., I've asked you to go to your room for time out - that's another 5p for disobeying me... 8p...9p...10p... Still here? 15p'...

Keep going slowly like a taxi running a meter. Keep calm and composed. Throw in the odd half or quarter of a pence to confuse/distract her a bit. Above all keep calm, don't raise your voice and focus on your own blood pressure. You are taking it seriously, but not getting angry or upset. She is waving a bloody great big red flag at you to get your attention. When it stops working, she will calm down.

If you can bear to be in the same room, sit and read the paper, yawn, have a cuppa... don't focus on her. Treat it like a fly buzzing in the room - there but not your main focus.

Kicks a door - 50p
Breaks something of hers - 20p
Breaks something of her sisters - 50p plus replacement
Hits someone - a pound

The first few times, it may run up to 20 or 30 pounds, but keep calm. It can be rough but persevere and stick to the plan. Remind her when she calms down that she can 'earn it back'. Getting to school on time, doing her homework, checking her school bag the night before, getting dressed, makinbg her bed... If you decide she gets 50p a day 'pocket money' then 10p for 5 things is easy. Plus if she clears out her kiddy stuff/junk from her room, that money is 'in the kitty' too.

Also good if you can persuade a friend to appear at the clearout "wow! A Hello Kitty sticker book!! My little niece would love that! If I give you 20p, can I but it from your ebay pile/charity shop/dump pile?". All earning pennies, and this really clicks with children.

Remind yourself - she's a good kid, she has been upset by squabbling and your illness, and is acting out the way she knows how. Don't be soft when she gives you the sweetest smile and 'I love you mummy!'. Don't say 'icecream sundaes for all!', say 'I know darling, I love you sooooo much!' Remind her what a gook/kind/nice girl she is and how proud you are of her. But remember that she is fragile - she's a kid and thinks/acts as a child.

Thank you! I think I could do that but I'm not sure if DP could. He just loses it and says whatever we're doing is not working and 'if I'd spoken to my dad like that, he'd have...' blah blah.

Sometimes I think it would be easier to do it all by myself (I know it wouldn't but I wish we could be on the same page a bit more.) We have had a chat and have agreed to cut out the squabbling and do our utmost to remain calm. Let's see how we go.

Have you heard of Pathological Demand Avoidance? Google it and see if it rings any bells. My friend's DS age 7 has just been diagnosed.

Yes, I saw that mentioned on another thread and looked it up on the National Autism Society website and it did ring a lot of bells. Will have another read of it. Thanks.

I wondered about PDA too. If it is this fine stuff won't work, you and her Dad will have to learn to talk to her in a very different way.
Has he had counselling about your diagnosis? Has he been on any parenting classes? What support does he have?

I would see your GP and ask to see a paediatrician to be honest.

What do school say? Surely that should be a partnership? Is there a meeting you could have to discuss things - if you have a terminal illness they may be able to access support for her, and they can tell you what happens at school.
Get an eye and hearing test just to rule out frustration.

I thought PDA too. Well worth looking into as the parenting style has to be very different.

School say she is perfect - literally "the ideal pupil" and "such a lovely girl" according to the last parents eve. They know about my diagnosis and have offered support eg will keep an eye on her / make space in after school club eg fb necessary etc but as I am still functioning reasonably normally nothing has had to happen.

What type of parenting would bd involved if it was something like PDA? I am a bit wary now about a wholesale change (bar keeping calm / reducing tension which is obviously good) if there might be a psychological issue rather than just a parenting one.

Sorry for the iPhone typos

Op, I am really sorry about your situation. I'm sorry that with your limited time, your family life is so hard.

I have a dd, nearly 6, who has a lot of behavioural problems. Since she has been 2. Her resistance to everything I wanted was relentless. I thought that it was just her growing out of the terrible 2s, 3s etc. the story of you having to drag your dd up to her room really rings bells for me. Since starting school (now yr1) I've though she could have AS, PDA or ODD. To be honest, I think anxiety is at its root, and I've been very reluctant to come down on her harshly. Like you, I had a very bad upbringing, so nothing in my terms of reference to rely on to help.

Last October, when I realised things were not getting better, I went to the Gp. From there, I saw a very useless community paediatrician, who suggested we had just got stuck in a rut of bad behaviour (I also have a dd7, 4 and 2; tbh, I think I have got a good grasp of this age group) and I was not having Problems with their behaviour. Anyway, in my borough I was able to self-refer to a local cahms group - tier 2. We now see a child psycologist weekly to try to come to grips with her behaviour.

If I am perfectly honest, I still don't think we are at the source of her behaviour at all, but I need to do something proactive as I can only see her going further downhill. You could ask your gp what services are available to you. Like you, my daughter is apparently a model student, however, I can see elements of her 'bad' behaviour manifesting at school (eg, stealing things, glittery things, just like a magpie to put into her boxes that she has spread around the house). Her lack of empathy for fellow students etc etc....

I still feel perhaps that we are missing something, but the psych says we'll be having a long relationship. It's all under the NHS. I have been tempted at times to go for a private diagnosis, but we will se how this goes for now.

Some of her more challenging behaviours include, being a nightmare to dress, ESP before primary school. An aversion to coats and socks. Will only wear socks now to school, everything else without socks. Before primary school would only wear vests outside, in winter I used to abandon vest and go straight to a long sleeved top. She'd just wear that outside, even in the snow.

Coming home after school with challenging behaviour for a good 1.5 hrs after school. Lots of shouting, crying, accusing everyone of everything, hitting.

Hoarding things in boxes. Not letting us sit on her bed. Very possessive of her objects. Likes her bed in a certain way. Will have boxes of her special treasure (eg, sheets of lasange, matches !!!) if we touch this she goes ape...

Sorry about the long post. I still am not sure where we are at with all of this, but the gp seems a very good move...

So sorry for your situation, it sounds like there is a lot of stress for you and your family at the moment. Just wanted to say we have found the aha parenting and hand in hand parenting websites really useful. Sorry I can't remember the actual website URLs but if you google those they should come up. Those sites focus on how to build connection with your kids, understand their emotions more and discipline too. We have an explosive little guy and all the usual techniques, time out etc don't work. But this approach is a lot more successful with him. All the best xx