Can't cope with my 6 yo anymore - what help could I get?

[PolyesterBride]

My 6 yo DD's behaviour is more and more out of control. Her tantrums, which are almost daily, are so extreme and violent I have no clue what to do. She goes totally mad - throwing things everywhere, pulling stuff off shelves, ripping things off walls, hitting us, screaming (for hours), crying, kicking, smashing things - anything just to react in a violent temper.

I don't know what to do about it. It is ruining our family life and I need to get help. I have approached the health visitor (when she was younger - she has ajways been like this to an extent) and the school nurse - both have given me parenting techniques. I have also been on a parenting course. None of this has really helped even though I try to apply the techniques - praising good behaviour, ignoring bad - but you can't ignore being hit.

The things that trigger her behaviour are nothing in particular I don't think - just bring told to do something (eg get dressed) / stop something (eg jumping on the bed).

I am totally at odds with my DP on how to deal with her. He thinks we should get tough - take her toys away, lock her outside etc and he thinks I am too soft. I think we need to reassure her that she is loved because to me she seems insecure and anxious. Today he said he wanted to put her I to care. He also thinks her problems are all my fault - I had a bad childhood and didn't grow up with a mother so I'm probably not the most natural or demonstrative parent. He and I bicker constantly which doesn't help the atmosphere. We can't break up though because I am terminally ill. Anyway I don't really want to - I just want us all to be happy.

Anyway the point of this huge essay is to ask whether anyone knows of any help we could access. We keep discussing child psychologists or family therapy but neither of us really knows what those things are or his we could find them. We don't have much money but would pay privately if necessary. We are in the north west.

I could approach the school nurse again but as DD1 is perfect at school, I don't hold out much hope of getting help there.

Sorry for all the typos - am on my phone.

Thanks so much for all of this.

Imip, it sounds like you are having a hard time too. My DD is in year 1 too and although she hasn't got the same issues as yours (although come to think of it, there are a lot of boxes of various treasures under her bed), there are certainly things in common. I will certainly look into the support available via the NHS (I have made a gp appointment). Like you, I don't have problems with my other child so I feel that it's something more than bad habits or parenting techniques.

Thanks everyone for the other suggestions - websites etc. I will look into them.

Oh OP, I'm so sorry to hear that things are so bad for you at the moment. You sound lovely and you must just be in pieces dealing with all this.

I sort of agree with nicename about the therapy for children; but, you know, it sounds like you and your DP are the ones who could do with some help. You say you bicker all the time, and it sounds like your DP is not being kind to you, especially when your situation is terminal. I think it sounds like you are all under terrible strain, and focusing on you and to a lesser extent your DP would help your DD. If there was less palpable strain and conflict between you both, I'm sure you would see a difference in your DD that you could then work with (I speak as the child of a very conflict-heavy and bickering marriage).

If I were you I would see your GP and ask for a referral for you for some proper psychotherapy, as well as or instead of family therapy. Stress to your GP that the nature of your illness is a factor and you can't wait about for some bog standard referral for the standard CBT counselling to come through, you need to see someone with expertise in family and or psychodynamic psychotherapy. You could look at private psychotherapy possibilities at the same time. I really think it would help you to have someone to talk to about your feelings about your childhood and your DD - you really deserve to feel better about yourself, and to have a better relationship with your DP too. Thinking of you, and wishing you all good luck :) xxx

NB I just noticed you say you didn't grow up with a mother - even more reason to have some therapy yourself. You could try to find someone with particular interests in and expertise in psychotherapy rooted in relationships with mothers in particular - try the BACP list of qualified psychotherapists - I think you can see some via the online directory at:
www.itsgoodtotalk.org.uk/therapists
And I think there are other online directories too.

Sorry for yet another post - BACP page and directory here:

www.bacp.co.uk/

Couples therapy for you and your DP might be another possibility - you could talk about making your relationship a happy place for you both as well as your own sadnesses too. I have had couples therapy with DH which was actually very helpful and really improved problems we had thought were intractable - it allowed us to see that it was indeed possible to mend some hurts we were both acting out from our original families in the relationship, and that it might be possible to be happy. xxx

Thank you train.

I am having some counselling to help me deal with my diagnosis but it doesn't really touch on family issues (feel like we'd be there all day if it did!). But I do agree that DP and I need to sort ourselves out in order to deal with DD's issues effectively. I will approach the GP as you suggest. Last time I asked the GP for counselling (for post natal issues) I was put on an interminably long waiting list for CBT. Hope there is an alternative.

PDA is related to ASD. So everything is anxiety based.
With PDA anxiety is overwhelming if the child/person loses control. So they react very badly to being given direct orders. I think they respond better to choices or being asked "what do you need to do to get ready for school?"
I don't know very much but there are several knowledgable people on the Special needs board.

I would definitely try nicename's fine scheme. It's clear and sounds easyish to implement. It will make you feel more in control. I would doubt pda if she is "perfect" at school. I know that children with asd/pda can behave very differently in different settings but school is usually fraught with problems of some sort or other for children with pda type problems- social issues, learning difficulties, resistance to the demands of school etc. Sounds more like she thrives on boundaries and rules at school and putting more of those in place at home is worth a try.

Is your partner her dad? I do think couples therapy could be helpful.He sounds like he finds your daughter very difficult. I would have been quite devastated by the putting her into care comment.

I'm so sorry to hear about your illness.

You need to work as a team with DP. Agree upfront: back each other up and never fight/snap/be sarcastic/squabble in front of the kids. Try to be more loving to each other too - the more you do this, the better you will feel anyway.

Have a good, realistic routine for mornings and evenings/bedtime. Often flashpoints are when you are running late for school/work and your child drops toothpaste all over their uniform or remembers some project that needs to be done. Build in some extra time for little emergencies.

If one is struggling then take time out and let the other one continue ('mummy needs to pop to the corner store for some milk' and go for a walk around the block).

Be firm with rules, but loving. Yes, by all means give her realistic choices but not open ended - so 'chicken or pasta for tea?' not 'what do you want?'.

Don't ask her too much about why she acts out. She probably won't be able to give you an answer anyway.

Think about what type of parent you want to be and what type you don't, and start from there. Ok so the Little House on the Prairie isn't practible but try for somewhere calm, fun, safe, loving, sometimes boring... No high drama, arguments, flashes of anger.

Please speak to your councellor about your childhood and feelings. Grieve for the mother you didn't have and move on from there. You are a good mum - you have hard things to deal with from all angles and I am amazed you haven't thrown in the towel! That means you are a fighter and have the brains and will to see this through.

Speak to your DP and outline the Plan. Work together. What I outlined comes from a teacher with many years experience teaching a wide range of children with some serious issues/life limiting conditions. I have seen it in action and it works. Its not a magic bullet but will take some weeks. There will be flashes but these will lessen in severity and occurance.

The main key is for you to remain calm and in control. Don't get cross. Work as a team. Remember that you love her, and want her to grow into a famtastic woman, someone who is in control of her emotions and can articulate her feelings. Maybe if she does some art/dance/photography... it would help her express her feelings.

Your DP is probably grieving too - for you and for the little girl who he sees as 'not what he wanted'. Help him to see that this is one thing that can be 'fixed' if you both agree.

Good luck! Start today! Write the Plan and sit down with DP when the kids are out of earshot. Agree and implement.

PM me if you have any questions. Keep your doctors appointment. Any referral will take time but in the meantime try this.

OP, have a look at this article on the difference between tantrums and meltdowns. Regardless of specific diagnosis, if a child is having meltdowns (essentially extreme "fight-or-flight", panic-attack type episodes triggered by anxiety, feelings of inability to cope and being out of control), then ime they need dealing with very differently to "tantrums" (essentially behaviour designed to get attention or the child's own way).

In my ds' case (he has dxes of ASD, PDA, sensory processing disorder and anxiety) a series of escalating consequences being given while he is mid-meltdown would be an utterly disastrous approach.

It's been mentioned earlier in the thread but Ross Greene's book "The Explosive Child" is amazing and has changed my life. It looks at how traditional consequences are counter-productive for children who explode because they don't have the skills needed to cope with the demands life places on them, and explains an alternative approach of collaborative problem solving. This article summarises his philosophy (although it's focused more on teachers dealing with children at school).

Oh and btw it is well documented (although not the case with my ds) that children with ASDs including PDA, can be capable of holding it together in school and letting it out at home.

I saw a child psychotherapist about the problems I was having with my 6 yr old who is an angel in school. He diagnosed beginnings of attachment disorder caused in part by my own anxiety and by difficulties in my relationship causing her to not know her position in the household. Plus I found it difficult to say no to her when she was younger because I hated conflict so much. My DD seemed to want to be in control all the time but she was just asking me to take control and provide leadership. I still struggle but the sessions I had provided me with great insight and strategies and techniques that would help me day to day.

An important thing is to have a structured dayt. Children who do well in school like structure so make sure you tell your DD what is happening now and next. Dont spring any surprises on her. if you have to timetable the whole day and let her know what is happening and when. The more boundaries and the more structure you have, the safer she will feel.

Respond don't react. If she says something horrible to you, a simple "I see" and move on. Don't give words power. i end up arguing with my DD over everything. I need to learn to not carry on the argument as my DD can argue longer and louder than me.

Hi poly thought I'd feed back from my weekly meet up today. Our psycologist said we should treat everything as if it is anxiety (I kind of thought it was anxiety from the outset tbh, which is why I moderated my response from bring angry to trying to be more understanding).

I was just wondering whether she knows about your condition (I think you've said she doesn't, but could she have for found out?). jeger your experience is interesting. I feel like I want to know what is underpinning her behaviour rather than just 'managing' her behaviour.

I hope you get a gp appointment see on. I think your are a definately priority. In your position it would be a situation would rather sort out sooner rather than later....(((xxx)))

If its anxiety - which is does sound like it may well be - is she having any physical symptoms? Sore tummy, runny poo/constipation, more coughs and colds than usual, sleeping problems?

I hope you are feeling more positive that you can help your DD be a happier little girl.

She most likely will be knowing what is going on in the family. Children pick up a lot more than we think.

Thanks everyone. All of your experiences are super useful.

I have sat down with DP and we have made some plans. We are also going to try to view her outbursts more from the perspective of anxiety not 'naughtiness'. I don't think she could exactly know about my condition, as in what I've got (I have secondary - incurable - breast cancer), but she could know or feel it's more serious than we've told her. DP doesn't always help as he's quite indiscreet - talking loudly on the phine and things like that.

Jeregrette - what you say is very interesting. It makes sense that a child who thrives at school would do well with a routine. I have also wondered about attachment too (not meaning to belittle those who have experienced attachment disorder which I know is very serious). Because of my background (lack of mother/abusive stepparent), I have often doubted the strength / security of our bond. Sometimes I feel very distant from people.

Anyway sorry for the huge essay! Just wanted to say thanks to everyone - you've all been a real help.

The attachment thing is interesting for me because I practised attachment parenting. I thought I was creating a cast iron attachment but in fact my own self-doubt and inconsistent discipline was contributing to the insecurity. My DD becomes superclingy when I've had a bad day or she has seen me crying etc. When I'm more relaxed she feels more secure and is noticeably more independent.

A friend of mine is going through a bad break-up and her DC takes it out on her, hitting and kicking her even though she is the person he undoubtedly loves most in the world.

At the time they are trying to push us away this is the time they need us most but it is very hard. At times my DD drives me mad and I end up getting really irritated by her and saying awdul things to my DH. But it is not her fault and I need to show her more understanding not less at these times. Even though I find it terribly hard.

By the way the PDA mentioned upthread sounds very interesting. I looked into it last night and rang a few bells for me though not sure that's the issue with my DD.

My DD does get dressed etc in the end but always when she is ready ( but don't most children procrastinate). I don't think she has ever picked up one thing though. If I ask her to do anything ie "please could you pick that up" she always says no. So she does avoid demands but I always thought that was me not being firm enough with her.

Incidentally there are child psychotherapists that will see you and sometimes make an initial assessment without seeing your child. I've seen mine on several occasions and he has never seen my DD as in my case it is my relationship with her (and my anxiety) that is probably at the core of it

A diagnosis by a professional will take observation/discussion with the child and family over time.

Anxiety is often raised when a child has fears of 'something' happening if they are not at home/with mum etc. I am sure she will have a sense that mummy is ill. Kids over hear things, see appointment cards, know about medecines and doctors, etc.

If a child automatically says 'no!' to a 'please can you...' request, then turn it into 'pick up the book and put it on the shelf...'. Small 'fine' if she refuses, no negotiation but lots of praise when she does.

Its an old phrase but 'children do need rules' and a framework within which to live. It makes them feel more secure in what is essentially a mad old world. They will push against it (especially when you change your parenting methods and they 'test' you).

Oh and with any outburts, try to ignore them, or make light of them (not poking fun, but more 'dead dear, what a racket! I am going to listen to the radio for a nice sound!' 'Oh my, such a loud grumble for a small girl...').

Yes, it may well be anxiety or frustration making a child act out but try to resist gathering her up in your arms and 'kissing it better' because she is upset. This will just make it get harder to break the cycle. Remember, you are NOT being 'cruel to be kind' you are being 'CALM to be kind'. Hey, I think I've coined a phrase there (trademark like mad and get a book deal!).

No oxygen of attention and it will extinguish!

nicename you are a genius! I am frantically taking notes.

As a parent of a 6 yr old DD and a psychiatrist (not a child one admittedly) I feel pretty sure that she knows more about your diagnosis than you think and that this is the root cause of her behaviour.

I am often amazed how much DD knows about things I don't think she does. She overhears things, puts 2and 2 and gets 5. Often I don't find out until much later that she is worrying about some offhand comment.

I am really sorry about your illness. It must be so hard to know you have limited time left with her and it seems you don't get the support you deserve from DP. Has he also reacted badly to your diagnosis? Were things better before?

My own mum has a stage 4 breast cancer diagnosis and we are told at max a couple of years to live. I did not tell DD about it and didn't plan to until it was more obvious but looking back I am sure she knows that something is wrong. When we found out last summer I was sad and crying a lot and DD must have realised something was up. She is always a shy kid but she became noticeably even more clingy, would not talk to people or go places without me. When I told her that my very elderly grandma died recently she said 'oh, I thought you were going to say it was grandma' ie my mum which made me realise that she clearly has some idea.

I am almost sure that your DD is expressing in her behaviour how sad and confused she is. She can pick up on you being ill and on the tension between you and DP and it makes her feel insecure and act out in her behaviour.

I do agree that individual therapy with this age group isn't always that great but family therapy I feel would be massively useful ie you all 3 in a room with a skilled therapist who can pick up on and help you all understand the dynamics and help DD express how she feels. You all, including DP, do need to commit to regular sessions and he might have to take time off work. You can ask your GP for a referral to CAMHS for this.

In the meantime could you try really going overboard with reassurance, praise for good behaviour and 1:1 time doing things you both enjoy (not conditional on being good) Is it possible to give her a really big hug, holding her tightly to you when she starts kicking off instead of time out. I am sure DP would object but it's called 'time in' and works with children with attachment problems. It's not rewarding a tantrum it is just giving them physical containment when they feel emotionally out of control.

When DP says 'I would never have spoken to my dad like that' I'm sure that's true but he wasn't facing losing a parent. Given the situation I don't think this should be treated like 'normal' bad behaviour and assumed to need punishment. He sounds like he might be in need of emotional support himself.

Please do try to get a CAMHS referral. Even if I am wrong and there is another cause it will still be helpful. Hopefully you can get a quick appointment if your GP emphasises that you don't have all the time in the world. Horrible to say but often there is a waiting list for CAMHS and they should emphasise that you deserve priority.

Sorry for mammoth post, really empathise with your situation and hope you get help soon.

This is really a v interesting thread....

poly have you seen a gp? Have you felt that treating her behaviour as anxiety rather than naughtiness has been helping. I think it helped as more not just for dd but for us! The constant shouting, sending to her room etc. I'm not lying, it still happens, but we are a little calmer as a result ( well, as calm as it can be with a 4 dds aged from 7-2).

Just to note, I do found that being a lot more 'involved' with dd2 has lead to my other dds being put 'offside' a bit. It's not a great situation, but I think you've said you have other dcs, so all the suggestions above for family therapy are great.

Occasionally, all my dcs see the psych and they think it is great. All your posts above are really helping me understand the process we are going through more, so thanks poly, thanks everyone!

Nowhere near genius - the person I know is! They work with professionals actoss the board and advises them and the families concerned.

I agree that someone removed from the situation would be good to view the family and possibly highlight where there are 'issues'. When you are in the eye of the storm its hard to see the wood for the trees (to truly mix my metaphors!).

I worked as a therapist and chatting to other therapists, we worked out the the majority of out clients came from anxiety based issues (phsychological or physical). Even if they didn't realise the root cause of their symptoms.

I hope things are looking better now.

I like "being calm to be kind"! A good motto to live by

I haven't seen the gp yet. I had an appointment for Monday morning but in the haze of a bad weekend and severe insomnia I didn't arrange time off work and had to cancel it. I will make another one though.

I have been trying to view her outbursts more for the perspective of anxiety and at the very least it helps me not to get angry. When I thought she was just being bratty it really incensed me. Yesterday she had a meltdown and I stayed calm.

I have also been thinking about what to do about telling her about my illness. I really don't want her to know that I don't have much time. When it is months of course I will speak to her but in the meantime I want to include her without shutting her out. It's hard to reassure when there is no good news. Need to see what she's thinking about stuff though.

Could MacMillan advise you?

Not really had much contact with Macmillan tbh but I have spoken to a family counsellor at a hospice and her advice was "whatever is right for your family". So that didn't really get me very far although probably true!