unwelcome behaviour (understatement) from friend's child - awkward situation

[girlsandboys]

(regular poster but using assumed name,just in case)

am in major quandry and would value views. will try to post fairly bland facts as I find this very upsetting.
basically, DD1 (aged 4) went with DH and DD2 (16mths) to party at friends house last week.I came later after work.
DD1 and friends DS (aged5) often play together and we have been on holiday for few days together previously. They have always seemed to get on well.
at the party friend's DS had number of schoolmates there too. DD1 only girl (apart from DD2 who was with me or DH all the time) at party.
all the kids were playing together upstairs as they often do at this friends (and indeed most of my friends houses) , two boys including friends DS running around with no clothes on when I arrived.
to cut long story short we got home and DD1 told us her bottom was sore when she weed. after some gentle questioning it emerged that friend's DS had pulled her trousers and pants down and poked her vagina with his finger repeatedly. She was red and a bit sore. She said she had asked him to stop and he didn't and (what confused her more than anything) he wouldn't say sorry afterwards.
we raised with our friends next days and they quizzed their DS who admitted to this in the end. seemingly the other boys were egging him on. friends were completely shocked and very apologetic and have been talking to the boy about it since. I know they will be dealing with this as a very serious matter
we agreed that they should phone and he apologise to DD. This happened and she said it was ok when he said sorry.
Our DD seems fine now and doesn?t seem to have given it another thought. Thank god. She seems absolutely fine physically and it doesn't seem to have had any immediately obvious emotional repercussions.
In ordinary circumstances I would just leave it and not see the boy for a while, then closely supervise ever moment of any contact they have.
The awful thing is we are due to go abroad with this family at the end of this week and stay in VERY close quarters with them for a week .
They have said they will cancel if we want them to, we can still go without financial (or other) repercussion. Indeed their immediate reaction was that they shouldn't come. After initially thinking there was NO WAY we wanted them to come (although we didn't tell them this) we said to them that it might be ok if we all watched the kids really carefully at all times.
However now I am not sure. I will feel very awkward if have to tell them not to come and feel as though might be overreacting. But also I don't want to underreact. Just want what is best for DD...(and I suppose if I am honest don't want loads of stress on our holiday)
Can the combined wisdom of mumsnet help?

What a terrible situation, how sad for you all . You are naturally shocked and devastated for your dd, they are mortified and confused. I don't see how anyone could have a relaxed hoilday together in those circumstances, no matter how closely you supervise the children, and they are doing the decent thing by offering to bow out. Distraction is probably best for your dd and being away from hpme without the other child present should help that.

Perhaps they could still use the travel arrangemens and find an alternative holiday as it does seem a shame to further "punish" their son. The more notice they get to do this the better chance they stand of finding somewhere.

good luck

I think being fascinated by and "doing stuff" are 2 separate things.

As for the holiday, it will be far too tense with the constant watching going on and I can't see that the subject will be far from anyone's mind for the whole time.

I personally would take them up on their offer to cancel.

What happens to the friendships later, time will tell.

IMO the friendship is probably never going to return to what it was before. Your first responsibility is to your daughter, so I would cancel.

I think the main issue here is the bullying aspect of it. The sexual side is something we have overlaid on it as children of this age are curious aboput this stuff but I don't believe it was anything more sinister.

Sexual abuse of children often involves an older child/adult and is about thre abuse of power over a child. Two children of the same age are often experimenting etc (though I appreciate there can be rare exceptions).

In this case however your dd was subjected to a bullying experience with several children involved. She probably has no concept that the 'sexual aspect of it' for want of a better way of expressing it, makes it seem so much worse to us than if the little boy had repeatedly pulled her hair (though that would be bad enough)

I would go with taking the lead from your dd. If she really seems OK with it I would go on holiday with the family but as you say be very vigilant.

If she seems upset and doesn't want to see the little boy I would take the parents up on their offer to withdraw from the holiday

"I think the main issue here is the bullying aspect of it."
Totally agree, lazycow.

I haven't got any advice about the holiday really, only you can decide what you think is right for your dd and your friendship with the other family.

However, I would sound a note of caution on how you deal with this situation with your dd. I hope you don't take this the wrong way and I can express what I mean fairly clearly. I think it will do more harm than good to treat your dd like a victim of sexual abuse. As hmc and others said, it's not that unusual behaviour for 5 year olds. I would hate to think that this becomes a huge issue for your dd in years to come. I understand that it's horrific for you and that it can't just be completely ignored but you have dealt with it, it's been as resolved as it can be between the two of them and you and your friends. I would actually not refer to it anymore, unless dd brings it up. I've read somewhere an article about children going through traumatic experiences and a lot of their issues in later life were actually perpetuated by the parents treating them as victims and the children never being allowed to forget what happened to them. Your dd will take her lead from how you and your dh respond to everything. You've said yourself that she would be aware of why you weren't going away with them - IMO that would be making an issue of what happened again. If the place you're all going is quite close quaters then it wouldn't be as obvious to your dd and friend's ds that they were being very closely supervised.

I know it's a really fine line between not making an issue of something and coming across like you don't care about how she feels but it would be a shame if this became a major problem for her.

Oh god, I hope you understand what I mean, I don't think I've said it very well and I really hope I haven't offended you.

I'm sorry but I do think it is unusual behaviour for a five year old. My ds is 5 and he doesn't even know that there is a hole there let alone repeatedly push a finger up it until it is sore. FFS if that isn't sexual abuse what is?

There isn't an easy solution for this one - I have so much sympathy for you (and, as the Mum of a nearly 5 year old boy who would be devastated if he ever did something like this, for the little boy's parents too).

I think - like many others - that it's too soon to be at such close quarters on holiday. I think your dd would probably cope better with it than you and your dh would - you will have it at the forefront of your minds all the time and will be constantly second-guessing even innocent behaviour.

I hope your friendship with the other couple can weather this - they have done the decent thing in offering to withdraw from the holiday which shows how bad they feel. I think you must take them up on it. If you go on holiday you risk exacerbating the situation further - I think you need some time to pass before you are able to all act normally again.

Much sympathy - what a dreadful situation

I agree with olihan too - I think she's little enough that yes, for a while she'll remember that it hurt, and she didn't like it and was upset...but she makes no other, more serious, associations with it. I would treat it like any other nasty incident of bullying - you've reassured and consoled her, you will make sure it doesn't happen again - it doesn't need to be made 'more' than that. I hope she doesn't remember it at all

so difficult to decide. FWIW I think it would a good idea to organise a get together with the parents and boy before the holiday just to see how it goes. See if your dd and the boy are fine with each other and most importantly as well, see how all the adults relate to each other. I really think a few hours of this will help you decide about the holiday.

I can see you are angry and tense and if this feeling does not subside after the meeting, IMO that alone makes it a good idea to cancel the other parents coming. But also accept that your friendship may cool as well, as from the other parent's POV, cancelling will be a negative, not a neutral reaction on your part.

It is so unfortunate that you are drawn into this by having a shared holiday booked so soon after the event.

Is there any conceivable way (tents in garden, caravan hire at nearby park etc) that you can adjust the living arrangements to give you and the other family more space?

As for the seriousness of the act, I think it is bullying, but I would be wary of putting an adult sexual spin on it. I do think 5 years old is young to make lasting judgements and condemnations (not saying you are doing this at all - both you and the other parents' reactions seem spot on)

FWIW thinking of my two sons at 5 years old, ds2 was more naturally sexually curious and precious(ds2) than ds 1. No reason that I can see, no difference in upbringing AFAIK, more a personality trait.

Hope things become clearer to you in the next few days.

Thing is, if this little boy doesn't have any sisters, he is likely to be curious about girls' bits - I can remember DS1 at this age trying to pull my legs apart when I was on the loo so that he could see my bits . Natural curiosity doesn't cover the poking bit, but that is probably explained by the other boys egging him on (and perhaps it is the other boys' knowledge and tendencies which need to be questioned rather than this lad's).

I agree with tigermoth. Can you arrange a well-supervised playdate with the boy and his parents to see how both children react to it? If the little boy was taken to task by his parents, it is likely that he will be just as hesitant about seeing your dd as she is about him.

I have a 5yo DS and whilst I am sure that he would never think to do something like this off his own back - I think that egged on by a bunch of his friends he just might do!

I don't think there that the sexual aspect of this is that worrying really - in their innocence I don;t think they attach as much of a big deal to these things as adults do.

When having the where do babies come from we talked about it coming out of a special hole in the mummies body. He immediately turned to his sister and said ' have you got a special hole - can you show it to me'. Cue another round of private bits of our bodies etc etc.

However, whilst I think this may well just be sexual curiousity gone too far, the fact is that as adults we do see this behaviour in a different light, and we do get very emotionally affected by it. Your protective instincts must be incredibly heightened at the moment as a result of what happened. As such I think it is really more about whether you feel ready to holiday with the other couple. It sounds to me like their approach has been faultless and that they value their friendship with you very highly. As such I would be rather inclined to go along with the plans, with maybe an escape plan if it gets too much. Is there another option on accomodation for them if things just get too much for you all?

Hmmm- no I don't I nhave a 6yo DS

How awful. I agree that you and the other family have handled this very well.

One question - are you sure the other family still want to come on the holiday? Yes, it's your daughter that was the "victim", so the decision has been placed with you. Are you clear that the other family actually still want to come?

Agree with Tigermoth that if you both choose to go ahead, it might be best to look for some alternative accomodation for the other family to give a bit more space so that you have some privacy, and the ability to spend time out of choice rather than necessity.

I heard of almost identical incidents happening recently between a friend's ds and several girls (all around 4). I did think it seemed a bit odd and worried that it might indicate something amiss in his life but his parents are certain he has not been exposed to anything inappropriate and his gp also seems to think it is normal childhood curiosity. All the parents involved agreed that their children should not socialise together for a while after this happened and I guess are hoping all the children will forget about it eventually.

I remember when my sister was approx 6, an older girl made my sister do things to her friend a boy of about 5,(i.e suck his willy,abit hazy as i was about 7). I have always looked back and seen that both my sister and the boy were victims. My older sister was also there and was sensible enough to run and get my mum. My sister and the boy remained frends... we were banded from seeing older girl, there were other issues with her... animal cruelty for one.

Awful situation girlsandboys, it really does sound as if you have handled it so well.
I tend to agree with the posters who think it is more bullying than sexual abuse. Still awful though.
Children are so curious, and group situations can be dangerous even at their tender age. I say this with some child protection experience myself.
But also, using that hat, if you have any doubts or concerns about the origin of this behaviour then you need to tackle it further.
Having said that it sounds as if, you feel on the whole that it would be a mistake to keep reacting to this (as hard as that is), and I agree with other posters that you have to be guided by your dd in this. Probably in terms of the holiday and in terms of whether it is ever raised as a topic again, take your cue from her.
Good luck in whatever you decide

thanks all

I must say that I don't see this as "sexual abuse"

I've actually worked really hard on not letting myself see it as that as sometimes it is hard not to overlay more adult readings onto it, but also my gut reaction is not to view it as that. I see it as a silly little boy getting caught up in a powerful peer situation and my poor DD bearing the brunt of it. (Thanks for the "pulling hair" analogy - that was really helpful) But it is the bullying part of it that makes me just as mad as the physical thing. The thought of her crying and asking her friend to stop doing this and all the others calling her names and egging him on. I know that our friends were as devastated by what they called his betrayal of her in the face of his older mates as by anything else.

lord of the flies does come to mind

I know the boys parents are working with him as much on the "not getting caught up in the herd mentality" side of things as on anything else

We are not really talking about it with DD now as we don't want to make too big a deal. I am just making sure I spend as much time as possible with her so that if anything needs to be discussed it can be. Have mentioned the little boys name on a couple of occasions and her reaction has been straightforward and positive. However I DON'T think she would work anything out if he didn't come on holiday.

I think the suggestion about trying to create a bit more space is good as was the comment about them maybe not even wanting to come any more.

Think what I will do is call my friend tomorrow and see how they feel about the holiday now that a few days have passed, maybe suggest the possibility of having a shorter period together or something, just so we don't have to all be on tenterhooks the entire time. It would be great if we could get a playdate in before we go but we leave first thing thursday morning and we are all working between now and then so it would be tricky...

anyway, thanks again guys. The varied perspectives and shared experiences of you all have been, as always, very helpful

I nearly said that "Lord of the flies" came to mind too!

oh dear - this isn't going away

as planned I spoke to my friend yesterday morning, at this stage DD1 was being positive about the little boy and had no problem with him being on hols with us. So having said to his mum that I had had reservations initially, and did still think it was quite soon after event, we were happy to go ahead with it.

then at dinner last night we were just chatting about the holiday, what we would bring etc and DD1 started saying she didn't want boy (X) to come with us. I was a bit surprised - we haven't explicitly mentioned the incident since about last Saturday, when we just checked with her that all was ok physically. I asked her why and she wouldn't say (DH wasn't there at this stage, just me, the kids and a new nanny) so I didn't make any big deal. When DH came home she stayed up with us for a while and again we were discussing the holiday and starting to make list of things to bring. Again she said she didn't want X to come. We had never made out that it was her decision (as we thought that would be too heavy for her) but that maybe they wouldn't be able to make it due to work anyway, but was she looking forward to them coming, that kind of thing...We asked why she wasn't so keen and she said three things - 1. he says poo poo all the time and she doesn't like that (DH had been discussing this with her as a few of her male friends do this and we don't really like it, so maybe that's come from us) 2. he keeps taking his bum out and showing it around (by this we don't know whether she means penis or not) and 3. he asks people to poke his bottom and she doesn't want to, because she doesn't want to hurt her friend (again not sure whether he does actually do this or whether it is her way of obliquely referring to what he did to her and don't want to pry too much)

DH is worried about the effect asking the friends to cancel now (they are due to take the ferry on Friday) will have on our relationship with them, and wonders whether DD1 is just reacting to our worries. But I think we have been really quite good about not going on about the incident and that she came up with this reluctance as it became more obvious that the holiday was getting closer (talking about which toys to bring etc.) I don't want to question her too closely about it as I really don't want to make it into a huge deal for her. DH thinks she may just be trying to take control (as 4 year olds like to) without really understanding the repercussions or implications and that she may actually turn around to us on holiday and ask why X isn't there.

(to try to get to the bottom of whether the "poo poo" talk had just come from us I did ask whether she would be happy for another little boy friend of hers who does a LOT of poo poo talk to come and she said yes, she would be happy with that which leads me to believe there is something more about X that she is uncomfortable with - which is very understandable given what happened of course)

DH is phoning to discuss with them this morning (I am, luckily, at work!) but I am interested in thoughts (especially of those of you who thought we shouldn't just automatically cancel but take DDs lead)

blooming hell, I didn't think it would all start this early.She is only 4...

Have just seen this thread and am very shocked.
I really think that you should listen to your instinct and protect your dd from any close contact with the said ds.

thanks PFNM - I think I know you are right deep down. Am just having problems justifying it to DH and worrying about friends reaction...

I think if you dd is this uncomfortable with it you really have no choice. I can understand not wanting to make it her decision in that it might make it too big a deal however it seems she is making her wishes pretty clear and however embarassing that is I think you need to take the plunge.

As a slight side thought (and I am aware that what 4 years olds say shouldn't be taken too literally), as the parents of the little boy in question I might be worried about what his behaviour means. The behaviour described by your dd if it were persistent and ongoing enough might constitute grounds for worry (i.e children who are being abused themselves often exhibit inappropriate sexual behaviour) - though I am completely aware that it may also be no more than a 5 year old being a bit too curious.

At the very least he is not being taught what is appropriate behaviour, although he seems young if he is behaving like this on a regular basis something does need to be done.

I was one of the ones who said be guided by dd, and i think that even without being 100% sure where these comments have come from, it is time to pull back, and not go with them.
It sounds like there is a slight conflict between you and your partner, as he seems keener to go.
I wonder if your partner is minimising things a bit as a way of dealing with his emotional response to it all? It can be really hard to acknowledge these type of feelings sometimes, and Men can have a tendecny to just want to keep going as if there isn't a problem.
Don't know if that has made sense?
As to what your dd said about the boy, it could be that however hard you have tried she has picked up more about your reaction than you realise. Alternatively, she is telling you something important about how she feels. I think, as it is impossible to know which of these things is the case, it is best to err on the side of caution and not go.