unwelcome behaviour (understatement) from friend's child - awkward situation

[girlsandboys]

(regular poster but using assumed name,just in case)

am in major quandry and would value views. will try to post fairly bland facts as I find this very upsetting.
basically, DD1 (aged 4) went with DH and DD2 (16mths) to party at friends house last week.I came later after work.
DD1 and friends DS (aged5) often play together and we have been on holiday for few days together previously. They have always seemed to get on well.
at the party friend's DS had number of schoolmates there too. DD1 only girl (apart from DD2 who was with me or DH all the time) at party.
all the kids were playing together upstairs as they often do at this friends (and indeed most of my friends houses) , two boys including friends DS running around with no clothes on when I arrived.
to cut long story short we got home and DD1 told us her bottom was sore when she weed. after some gentle questioning it emerged that friend's DS had pulled her trousers and pants down and poked her vagina with his finger repeatedly. She was red and a bit sore. She said she had asked him to stop and he didn't and (what confused her more than anything) he wouldn't say sorry afterwards.
we raised with our friends next days and they quizzed their DS who admitted to this in the end. seemingly the other boys were egging him on. friends were completely shocked and very apologetic and have been talking to the boy about it since. I know they will be dealing with this as a very serious matter
we agreed that they should phone and he apologise to DD. This happened and she said it was ok when he said sorry.
Our DD seems fine now and doesn?t seem to have given it another thought. Thank god. She seems absolutely fine physically and it doesn't seem to have had any immediately obvious emotional repercussions.
In ordinary circumstances I would just leave it and not see the boy for a while, then closely supervise ever moment of any contact they have.
The awful thing is we are due to go abroad with this family at the end of this week and stay in VERY close quarters with them for a week .
They have said they will cancel if we want them to, we can still go without financial (or other) repercussion. Indeed their immediate reaction was that they shouldn't come. After initially thinking there was NO WAY we wanted them to come (although we didn't tell them this) we said to them that it might be ok if we all watched the kids really carefully at all times.
However now I am not sure. I will feel very awkward if have to tell them not to come and feel as though might be overreacting. But also I don't want to underreact. Just want what is best for DD...(and I suppose if I am honest don't want loads of stress on our holiday)
Can the combined wisdom of mumsnet help?

God you're right ,what a quandry!

I am really quite shocked and disgusted at the boys behaviour,both the one who did the poking and the fact that the others egged him on.For 5 yr old boys ,well any age boys I find it shocking.Sorry don't mean to add to your worry.
As for going on holiday I really don't know.Do you have to spend a lot of time with them whilst there?Could you agree to go your seperate ways for most of the time?
Does your dd feel okay about seeing this boy again?

I have no advice having never been in your situation. But I would say go with your instincts. It does sound like the boy, who is still only a baby in relative terms genuinely didn't realise the seriousness of his behaviour, is sorry and has promised it won't happen again. However, I'm not sure I (and DH) would be able to relax and enjoy a family holiday if I felt I had to always be on my guard around this child.

I think maybe the holiday is a bit too soon after the event to be comfortable for either family, tbh. Can the family change their accommodation at this late stage, rather than cancelling and presumably losing their deposit/balance ?

No I certainly wouldnt consider going it is giving the message out to your child that it is ok what he did and that we can all be friends like nothing ever happened.
Whilst yes I agree you could supervise them closely what kind of holiday would this make for your little girl who has done nothing wrong and deserves some freedom.Also it in a years to come she might be resentful that you all went even though he did that.
Yes it might appear awkward and things might be difficult but could things reallistically ever go back to how they were.
The best thing for your dd is that you go on holiday happy and relaxed not wound up like the town clock.
Have you had her medically checked over -just as a side question. Big hugs to you and your dd sounds like you both need it.

My guess (and I may be way off mark here) is that your friends and you will watch these kids like hawks and therefore you can be quite confident that your daughter will be not be subjected to that type of behaviour while on holidsy but that you feel guilty about thinking it's all right to put your daughter in this child's company again.

Only you can judge - the reaction of your dd, the reaction of your friends etc. If you think it will be ok, go with your instinct.

I would take them up on their offer to back out of the holiday.

Thinking back to when I was that age, I'd not have wanted that boy near me again so soon, I'm afraid.

And imagining it was one of mine who'd had that done to them...no, thank you.

(Obv I have boys, so wouldn't have been quite the same...oh, you know what I mean)

I'd be concerned about where these boys got the idea from - one of them must have been exposed to something unsuitable, which is a worry.

I would cancel - it's too soon after it happened. I'm not sure I could look the little boy in the face after what he'd done, let alone spend time on holiday with him.

Bloody hard one to answer.

The rational side of me says that these boys are too young for this to be sinister and that the DS concerned sounds as though he knows what he did was wrong.
With that in mind I'd go ahead with the holiday together ( especially as his parents are totally symapthetic towards your situation ).

The emotional side of me shouts "HOW DARE THESE PIGS DO THIS TO MY DD"

I think that the most important thing is ....

so long as your DD doesn't think that you are "abandoning" her and not taking her feelings seriously then you should be OK. The worry is that you "over-talk" the situation with her ... as in your post you say ....

... Our DD seems fine now and doesn?t seem to have given it another thought. Thank god. She seems absolutely fine physically and it doesn't seem to have had any immediately obvious emotional repercussions.

I think that by over-reacting ( for want of a better phrse ) you might run the risk of making her more aware what actually happened to her.

God you poor thing.

Really feel for you. We had a similar but less serious situation last year. My dd then 4 came running downstairs from playing with her friend (boy), saying he had asked her to suck his willy. He ran down after her very upset saying it was a secret. (Feel shaky as I write this). Me and his mum very shocked, but tried not to overdo it. Gentle questioning of him revealed that a boy in his reception class had asked other boys to do this to him. So I would gently ask other parents if you can where you think it is coming form.

We kept the kids apart for a bit, but neither of them seem to have remembered it, and are now back to being best friends. BUT if my dd had been hurt (as yours has) then I would not have gone away together so soon - too confusing and perhaps too much of a reminder of what happened IYSWIM.

Sending you a big hug

is she the upper end of 4 (so nearly 5)? if she is I think I might ask her what she thought. So something like 'oh, we were thinking of going away next week with X and his family. Do you think that would be a nice idea?'

in the end, even if she doesn't seem to be bothered, if you don't feel that you'll be able to put this behind you (and tbh, who could blame you) before you go away, I'd prob take them up on their offer of not coming.

I think I'd take them up on their offer to cancel, tbh. Shocking behaviour. Unless that would make it more of an issue for your dd, given that she seems to be coping with it? Does she know you are going away with this family? Like fox's idea of asking her if she's OK about that, without making a big deal of it.

Do his parents have any idea where he got the idea from? I'd be really worried about that.

thanks guys

I was optimistic that there was no really sinister motive for what went on, and agree that 5 is still a baby as things go (this is certainly the opinion the boy's mum has, while she is deeply shocked and distressed by his behaviour and absolutely not excusing it) but Crystaltips put it perfectly when she said

HOW DARE THESE PIGS DO THIS TO MY DD

that is exactly how I am feeling. when I allow myself to think about it i want to cry. i couldn't tell a close friend i was speaking to yestyerday what happened as I couldn't bring myself to vocalise it.

however I still don't want to overplay it

I guess if I do take them up on their offer of cancelling (I would feel awful, as they werereally looking forward to it) I wouldn't needto tell DD why, and I doubt she would put two and two together

the accomodation we are going to is tiny (it was all a bit last minute and madcap anyway) and there would be no really separate spaces, or chance to do much separately

however it is a regular family destination for us and lots of DD's relatives and friends will be there...(including another 5 year old boy - son of some other friends, aaarrrgh!)

DD1 is just 4 and one month. I have asked her whether she feels comfortable being around the little boy and she says yes, but she hasn't actually seen him since

I would never forgive myself though if anything I did at this stage meant that this lodged in her brain for any longer than it needs to (as Joanna4 alluded to)

we didn't have her medically checked as we didn't want to medicalise or make too much of it - obviously we would have had we been really concerned about the physical side of it, if she was sore for an extended period (she said she felt better next day)

oh god, am going to have to phone them aren't I?

belgianbun, interesting what you said with your cp hat on. there was a boy there whose behaviour was particularly noticeable, he was in everyone's face and was very into everything. our friend's son hadn't had him over to play before but his mum is now trying to keep a distance between them as she suspects he may have influenced her sons behaviour.

the child's parents are doing everything they can, and I don't want to undermine their efforts in that regard, but I think it might just be still a bit too recent...

will discuss with Dh when I get home, again

Agree with batters. I think this sort of thing does happen sometimes, without anything majorly worrying prompting it, necessarily. Children are curious and can and do explore each other's genitals. They also can and do behave badly re ganging up on each other and it sounds like the real problem here was the particularly distressing combination of these two relatively everyday things. Doesn't make any of the kids concerned monsters or at risk- all this is dealable with without long term damage imo- but it's obviously really sad for dd that the boy didn't listen to her and I think it's only natural for all of you- adults and children in both families- to be upset about that and want some breathing space to come to terms with it and move on. Unless you are all almost superhumanly forgiving and laidback it sounds like the timing is all wrong for going on holiday together.

You and the boy's family sound like you have dealt with this so well, girlsandboys. I hope you come to a decision about the holiday that works for your family and especially your dd and that whether you brave out the joint holiday or go somewhere else you all have a wonderful time.

I don't think it is odd behaviour belgianbun for a 5 yr old. I remember myself and friends being quite fascinated by such things at that age, and fiddling with our bits in a fairly innocent group situation without any of us (to my knowledge, and certainly not myself) having been exposed to sexualised behaviour or abuse from any adults / older children. We had a vague idea it was naughty but didn't understand why.

In fact my parents response to catching me in one or two of theses situations (flashing my bum to next door neighbour - similar age), and painting my nipples with mum's mascara - and their obvious disgust and overt censorship of the whole thing has left me really quite sexually repressed as an adult (sex = dirty)

To the matter in hand. I wouldn't unintentionally demonise the boy (I know you have no intention of doing that girlsandboys but the other family having to cancel the holiday equates to that imo), but would keep an eye on holiday...

I think if the other family do end up cancelling the holiday....and I appreciate that they offered to do this...if you take them up on it, they may resent it subsequently.

Apologies that I am out of tune with everyone else on this and hope my comments will be taken constructively (rather than attract scorn)

god, how awful for you all. i'd cancel, or take them on their offer of cancelling, if i were you.

I have only read your OP and my gut reaction is to accept their withdrawal from the holiday.You'll enjoy it more, basically.Plus they and you can have time to really think this through.

I would go with how your dd feels...but it would be sensible to let the children have a play before the holiday to see how it goes. If that goes fine and dd is happy I would go ahead with the holiday but supervise them more closely.

I don't think you can demonise such young children although I too think it is odd behaviour and that the parents of the boy should be looking into the situation to find out what was behind it - and they should share this with you. Making a big fuss may make the whole event more traumatic than it already has been

hmc, your points are exactly why we haven't taken them up on their offer to date...

I'm not sure our friendship would get back on our regular footing if we ask them to follow through on cancelling...

but ultimately I guess we have to be confident we will all be able to relax and most importantly that DD won't be exposed to anything like this again on hol

I certainly don't scorn your opinion, in fact it is close to what mine had been, think I am getting cold feet now that the holiday is getting closer though...

wish we had never gone to the bloody party!

I have to agree with HMC hereI believe the kids were very young for this to be sinister and have to agree that they were just exploring. If your children and friends and were friends before, I think they understand that the behavior is NOT to be repeated. It might be a good idea to get the kids together before the tripjust to see how they respond to each other. It would be a shame to drive a wedge in the adult friendships and your kids friendships over something they will forget about shortly if not already. Your DD needs to be protected and heard which from what you said she is being heard. It is a learning for everyone, I have a DD myself, and I am sure I would be angry about it, but I would not want my child to be left out or not given another chance once they understood that doing that was not "on" if you know what I mean.

I didn't think you would scorn my opinion girlsandboys - but you know what mumsnet is like

Really hope things get a little clearer for you over the next couple of days after further reflection and mulling over it all. Don't envy you your dilemma one little bit

I see where you are coming from hmc. I kind of agree actually but think that if girlsandboys and her dh are feeling anxious and upset then it's unlikely that anyone'll have a good holiday. I totally agree that kids exploring their bodies and their friends' bodies is totally natural. My two are fascinated by their own, each others', their friends', and our genitalia and I remember being similar at their age. I treat it fairly matter of factly, I hope. But I would be livid with them if they did what girlsandboys describes this little boy doing, because no one disputes that her dd was telling him to stop but that, egged on by his friends, he did not.