My Concern over a little boy, suspected neglect.

[mookymim]

Hi Please could you give me some advice over a growing concern I have for a little boy in our neighbourhood.I'll give you a bit of the history.
I met this little boy and his mum at a toddler class she was introduced via a friend although my friend doesn't really know her that well. His mum is a vegan and has had an eating disorder in the past, her little boy who is now 3 has been kept on a strict vegan diet all his life. He is very sleight for his age and looks pale. The issue here isn't a vegan diet I'm just not sure he's getting enough food and nutrients as I have witnessed him eating food from the floor and stealing leftovers from other childrens plates. Here are some of the things that have caused me concern over the past year.

never being allowed to eat the party food at childrens parties, being told 'no' and being forced as the other children enjoy the cakes etc

eating food from the floor

Not having mealtime routines or bedtime boundaries.

He goes to bed with his parents sleeps in their bed and is allowed to stay up while they watch inappropriate programmes.

My friend saw him a few weeks ago she said he looked awful as his curly hair had been' hacked off' apparently the mother had attempted to cut his hair herself but it was all patchy, short bits, shaved bits etc...

He has many allergies and food intollerances.

My little boy took an unusual dislike to him and seemed unnerved by him,9they were 2 at the time)

More recently they called round my friends house and who made her daughter and the little boy a sandwich, he ate it and then started to eat her daughters leftovers, my friend asked if he would like another sandwich the little boy said yes because he was hungry at this point his mother said 'no dont give him another he's had enough' despite the little boy saying that he was hungry.

His mum is very defensive and quick to anger, she is aggressive and I imagine a lot of people would shy away from being forthright with her. There is a Dad present but I have witnessed him being very much 'put in his place' and to be honest he seems a bit ground down.

I have voiced my concerns to my friend and her partner and they also said they were concerned but didnt think it was as serious as abuse. They have witnessed affection and love coming from the mother in question and my friend said he had been spoilt at Christmas with lots of toys.
When the Pelker case first came to light this little boy came to my mind straight away especially when hearing how the mother had duped the nursery staff by claiming he was on a 'special diet'

I dont want to jump to conclusions or stir up trouble but I have an awful feeling in my gut. Perhaps it's not conscious abuse but more the results of a mother with mental health issues regarding food and her own body. She's imposing her own food issues onto her son, abuse by proxy? I just cant stop thinking about this little boy. I get the feeling that people think I'm being over protective and I'm also aware that I no longer see this boy or his mother so must of my information is second hand.
I'd be most grateful if anyone could advise me on what to do as regards this situation. thank you.

I feel if you have a concern and are worried about this child you should speak to someone

Far better than to brush it under the carpet and possibly something terrible happen

Being Vegan is fine, letting your child go hungry is not

Co sleeping is fine. Letting them be in your bed while you watch inappropriate tv (and we don't know exactly what in this case) is not

Lily you're very naive if you think that ALL of the people who decide to report people to SS are acting out of genuine concern rather than a desire to get someone in bother or to inject a little drama into their own lives.

AwfulMaureen, the cases of wrongful SS involvement are a tiny minority when compared with the number of cases where their involvement has protected children from abuse and/or neglect. You just don't hear about those cases.

The OP cannot clarify things. The burden of proof is not on her.

She could clarify what "eating off the floor" means...because if she means "He picked up a dropped crisp" then the only other concerns she has is that he's a co sleeping, dodgily styled kid who has vegans for parents!

To be frank, the child sounds like a million other kids I know...not many boundaries, hippy parents who are lax about bedtime and a Mother who's a vegan....if I was going to report people in those circumstances then I'm afraid that's most of the women I know!

Ok Awfulmaureen.

I think bias perhaps goes both ways.

Good idea to leave it to trained professionals to identify any risks.

Well of course bias goes both ways...not sure of the relevance of that Tethers

Well, I suppose the idea that a vegan, co sleeping parent could not possibly be capable of child neglect is as naive as the idea that there are no malicious reports of abuse to SS.

I don't think it's a case of bias bcos other posters co sleep etc And they think that another mother doing similar isn't capable of abuse I think it's more a case of cutting the boys hair co sleeping and being vegan on their own r not abuse. It's a thin line I have to say from what iv read I don't think I would report to ss there r a million explanations not all r abuse. As op doesn't know where the woman lives or last name that's y my advice was to make sure she's careful her friend doesn't land her in it if she decides to report and to b c sure that it doesn't feel right. I'm not seeing what the op has seen so I can't say either way but I think if ur going to report to ss there needs to b a significant amount of genuine concern and not just disagreeing with someone else's parenting style (not suggesting this is the case with u op)

I would report. There MAY be a completely innocent, fine explanation, but SS can find that out. If there turned out not be an innocent reason, I couldn't live with myself. Fwiw, I was neglected (went into care) and my father didn't let me eat party food and so on, and I ended up stealing foods, continually.

Tether but the fact that they're vegan, co sleep and gave him a bad haircut are the ONLY points she's raised as possible neglect! That's bloody laughable!

Of course vegans can abuse...but really...where's the REAL concern here? Is he skin and bones for instance? if she said that then I'd be handing her the phone myself...is he bruised? Timid? All she's said is the things listed above.

"I think it's more a case of cutting the boys hair co sleeping and being vegan on their own r not abuse"

I honestly cannot see where anyone has said that- can you CnP?

"Tether but the fact that they're vegan, co sleep and gave him a bad haircut are the ONLY points she's raised as possible neglect! That's bloody laughable!"

It would be if it were true. But her main concerns are about the child being underweight, appearing hungry and stealing leftovers and eating food from the floor. Which is quite a few more points than you've mentioned.

They may amount to nothing- but then again they might, as these are behaviours exhibited by children suffering neglect. Not exclusively, but exhibited nonetheless.

Nobody on an Internet forum can say whether this boy is being neglected or not. The OP cannot say whether he is being neglected or not. But, given what she has observed, I would advise reporting as I have seen too often the damage neglect can do to a child.

I'm torn on this tbh.

Allergies and intolerences would explain the weight

Veganism isn't abuse, done properly it's as healthy diet as any (adding meat and dairy doesn't turn a shit diet into a good one)

Co sleeping- well not my thing wouldn't do it but many do. The inappropriate programs are te only issue there. How can you be sure about that has he told you?

All kids eat off the floor, and whine they are hungry. Given half a chance I thing a lot of kids would eat/graze all day so again that wouldn't ring alarm bells either.

But, there's a lot to be said for gut feelings....

There's no need to be torn- none of us need to decide whether he is being neglected or not.

My DD1 would and has scavenged from the floor (aged 5/6) and a sunday school worker flagged it. This girl eats like it's a sport and is a skinny rake. It's because we cycle everywhere and I don't give her sugar, so if she sees a dropped biscuit, she thinks it's worth any social faux pas .

However, I wasn't offended by the query. I was embarrassed, and cringed a bit explaining her hollow legs, but I don't mind that they raised it. It shows they care, and I have nothing to hide.

Agree with MrsDV that kids do stuff. It doesn't always have reasons attached.

If you are concerned about a child but are unsure how serious it is you need to pass the information on ss or ring nspca to allow the proffesionals investigate and make a judgement using all the data. It is not your job to decide which information to pass on as you are not trained to make that judgement therefore you should pass on all information to the relevant person.

Tether what I meant was that was the confusion with the bias that other posters that r vegan and co sleep etc feel that mentioning the co sleeping and being vegan r irrelevant as it's not abuse sorry if that's still not clear.

I have also noticed that op said in her first post she no longer sees this child so all her information is second hand even the friend that obviously disagrees with this ladies parenting style has said she doesn't think it's abuse as she's witnessed affection.

I have a v underweight 3 year old I feed him he has asthma and allergies he eats for England but bcos he's underweight and I don't let him drink cows milk bcos it gives him excruciating stomach pains and the runs and he's pale like me (also have asthma and allergies) does that mean I should b reported to ss despite the fact I'm at the Drs with him every week to find the cause of the weight loss? (For the record we think we now know the cause) op does not see this lady so how does she know if she's in and out the Drs with him regarding his weight and allergies? Like I said thin line and I just don't think u should report to ss unless u r really genuinely concerned.

Quite a bit of this sounds within normal parameters, but the scavenging for food thing is a warning sign that something may or may not be wrong, and it is probably worth having a chat with the mum about this. It's hard to do this politely without being sworn at, but if you can manage to do so it's worth being brave. Then you would learn a bit more about the situation and can decide whether to say something to the authorities about it all.

"even the friend that obviously disagrees with this ladies parenting style has said she doesn't think it's abuse as she's witnessed affection."

You see it's this kind of thing which means that only a trained professional can ascertain if abuse is taking place.

None of what I have said advocates reporting the parents of every pale or skinny child to SS, and it's a little disingenuous to suggest that it does.

Every behaviour the child is exhibiting could be explained by something else; most behaviours (in isolation especially) can be. Sometimes, it's only when they are seen as part of a bigger picture that they indicate abuse or neglect. You may not be able to spot the bigger picture unless you are trained to do so.

Which is why I advise the OP to report her concerns.

When you are trained, things like smell and food scavenging are very significant in informing any decision about whether to escalate.

If op was saying she saw lb at toddler group regularly mum doesn't allow him to eat but says he has allergies he is unhappy always saying he's hungry and mum doesn't have an alternative that is suitable for his diet with her ever (obv we all get caught short from time to time) doesn't appear to b growing mum doesn't seem worried so not taking him to Drs etc and she knew mum reasonably well then I think I'd be more worried tbh but I'm not saying at all that she shouldn't report as we all know sometimes it's hard to convey meaning in text and this r misread/Mis construed and op may have put more emphasis on the vegan diet co sleeping and his dodgy haircut than intended and there b real problems. I'm just saying if ur going to report u need to b sure it's the right thing and for op to b careful as I'd hate to hear mum of said lb found out it was her and confronted her. Op u must b a v caring lady to b so worried so please don't think I'm saying ur wrong just make sure ur following ur gut instinct and not just hear say from other ppl x

This is the bit that's making me tell op to b v sure

" I get the feeling that people think I'm being over protective and I'm also aware that I no longer see this boy or his mother so must of my information is second hand"

The fact that the OP hasn't witnessed this recently will certainly be a factor in whether SS decide to investigate further.

"I'm just saying if ur going to report u need to b sure it's the right thing"

I think this is the crux of the argument, mummyto2- my point is that you don't have to be sure to report suspected neglect and abuse. If you have concerns, you should report them and let the professionals assess; not tie yourself up into knots trying to work out probabilities,