Don't force apologies -what does this mean?

[Vijac]

I have a toddler and I have not made a decision to parent in any particular style, I am just doing what feels right and taking advice and ideas from where I choose.

I am interested in attachment parenting as one influence and I was reading something on discipline where it said 'don't force apologies', it should come from the heart. My son is 22 months and when he does something naughty eg. Pulls my hair, or deliberately pours a cup of milk on the floor, I tell him he shouldn't do that, and why eg. 'It makes a mess and now I have to clear it up when I'd like to be playing' and I then ask him to say sorry and give me a kiss. He usually does this happily but I have had to ask him a few times before when he has been being a bit grumpy about it. Is this approach wrong or damaging? I do also acknowledge his feelings eg. I know you are frustrated because you want xyz but you mustn't pull hair because you hurt mummy, say sorry to me. Then after he has apologised I move on. I do want to encourage good manners, but I don't want to stifle individuality and creativity. I'd say the sorry thing probably happens about twice a day. Any advice or thoughts?

I think at 22 months he is probably still a little young to understand that sorry is more than a word.

I agree that a forced, mumbled "sorry" with no meaning behind it is a waste of time. DD is 3.5 and just starting to understand that sorry can't just be said when she doesn't like the consequences of her actions.

It means that an apology must be freely given, otherwise it is worthless.

When you apologise, you are saying 'I did something wrong, which hurt/upset/annoyed you and I regret doing this'.

A false apology is one that is said to appease you, but not meant.

In the situation that you describe, I would say something along the lines of 'Ow. That hurt me when you pulled my hair', and leave it.

Children learn very well from observing others - so if he sees you apologising to others, he will learn from this and do the same.

I also would very much avoid the giving a kiss to say sorry, unless freely offered by him. Children should never be forced to kiss or hug anyone, even a gentle persuasion.

I don't think little children have any concept of what sorry means. I think when adults make children say sorry in 99% of cases all it really does is establish dominance, not teach understanding of what sorry actually should mean. I think sorry is something to talk about but forcing a sorry out of a tantruming child is utterly meaningless (unless it is to establish that you, mum, are the boss - which of course is sometimes necessary).

Good point with the kiss. I think I mean it more as let's have a kiss and cuddle and move on to the next thing. But I will drop that I think. Is the saying sorry not to a good way of teaching not only manners but the concept of apologising and considering other people's feelings though? And also just teaching the culturally appropriate thing to do, as you would with table manners, saying bye bye etc.

To depart a bit from sorrys to general ap and parenting...I have a friend who did everything the ap way and at four her daughter is very lovely and confident generally but also can be selfish, expecting to have everything her way and tantruming on the rare occasions she doesn't get it and impolite eg. 'I want a glass of water' (no thank you, please etc). I think that this is not good for her as the tantrums must be unsettling and more and more at school she will not be able to have everything in such a permissive way and people do respond better to children who are gore coming with please, thank yous and apologies. But...she is very confident and engaged. I want to tread a middle ground I think. What are you all doing?

Children learn more about manners from observing than from you teaching them. If they see you saying 'please' and 'thank you' when you are served in a cafe, they will learn to do that too.

Which doesn't mean that a gentle reminder isn't appropriate, but a forced and grudged 'thanks' isn't any more polite than none.

It very much depends on the age of the child. I would be cross with my 11yo if she refused to say thank you to a waiter, but wouldn't with a 3yr old.

I tended to use short statements of facts, 'It is polite to say thank you when someone does something for you', rather than long involved explanations and emotional blackmail such as, 'We say thank you when someone we love does something nice for us, don't we. Oh, look. Granny will be soooo sad if you don't say thank you, look I think she is going to cry'.

I would always encourage/ ask child to say sorry. They may not understand the meaning of what they are saying to start with, but they will learn, and by then they will be in the routine of saying sorry when appropriate. Same with 'please' and 'thank you.' I don't think they have to 'mean' it every time. There are times as adults we have to say 'thank you' or 'sorry' when we're not really meaning it. It's good manners, and I put I high importance on manners.

I don't agree with attachment parenting, so you prob don't want to hear from me. However, I agree with Seb101. Of course at 22 months they won't understand what sorry means (my DD is also 22 months). However, we have just started with sorry and she knows to say it when she does smth wrong now. I don't see how it can be a bad thing. She will learn what it actually means in time.
She also doesn't understand what the purpose of please and thank you is, but has also learned to say those now (better with please than thank you, but getting there!). I just don't see the negative in teaching them manners at this age!

This thread is very interesting to me as my children have been made to say sorry but 99% of the time they really don't mean it and the other day my 12 year old told me if he said it to his sister he wouldn't mean it. When I have asked that they apologise if they mean it they don't apologise. Not sure where to go from here now.

Saying sorry isn't always about feeling remorse etc. I think it's a good habit that invites good communication.

I have come to the conclusion that saying sorry is not so much about how YOU feel (and understanding the situation fully) but about acknowledging something has gone wrong to the other person.

i think its really important to teach kids to say sorry so they learn about building bridges and the effect it has on others around them. for example when my toddler bites one of their older siblings, she will say sorry and kiss them. this means more to the elder dc who immediately hug her. And reinforce the lesson that saying sorry and having a hug makes everyone feel better.

I think you can ask I child, after your explaining why it was wrong, whether they agree they shouldn't do it again and whether they think what they did was a mistake. If they do, you can explain they can say sorry to show they mean this.

If they seem reluctant you may need to do some more explaining....maybe discuss alternative ways of dealing with whatever has upset them / the situation that prompted them to behave the way they did.

I have not said that children should not say sorry - just that young children don't have a full understanding of its meaning.

DD does say sorry, and is beginning to understand what it means. She also understands that if she does something wrong and is punished, sometimes just saying "sorry" is not enough to fix what she has done wrong. That doesn't mean she never apologises, and actually it is beginning to mean something to her (e.g. if she accidentally knocks someone), so the approach we have taken is working.

I think some people confuse attachment parenting with permissive parenting?

^that should be 'the child'

I don't mean that you shouldn't teach a child to say sorry, but you shouldn't force them to do so.

Mum: 'You are not getting to play with X unless you say sorry to your sister for hitting her'

Child: 'Sorry' (either mumbled or said with resentment.

How does that do anything other than teach a child that even if he isn't actually feeling remorse for hitting his sister, he will get off the hook by uttering a simple 'sorry'?

You are not teaching them empathy by making them say sorry. You are teaching them to lie their way out of a situation.

It doesn't mean that you don't tell your child to say it, but in an unconditional way, 'It is polite to say sorry', or 'You hurt your sister, and she is upset.'

You also have to ensure that YOU apologise for mistakes too.

Something i notice is that a lot of parents expect politeness from their children without demonstrating any politeness themselves. Even on this thread people have said "he will see you being polite to other people" - what about being polite to him. My 2.8 year old definitely understands the meaning of sorry and says it unprompted if he does something accidentally like stepping on my foot. That's partly because he has good language skills but also because anytime i did something accidental i would say sorry and explain why i was saying it until he picked it up. He needs more convincing in fraught situations but for example when he put a box on his friend's head (scaring her) and i said to say sorry he told me he had to go and think about it first. He did eventually come back and say it.

I think if you consistently say please and thank you etc to a child they will eventually mirror it back.

It is a difficult one especially as age must change how you can teach this. I think if I started explaining the meaning of sorry then it would go right over his head, but I feel if he is taught to use it -'say sorry for hurting your friend', then he will grow to understand the meaning quickly. But would ap parents agree with this or not? I don't see why toddlers can't understand the meaning, they are able to understand words such a good, soft and please at least to some extent.

Imo strict ap parenting places far far too much responsibility on the child. As the parent it's your duty to help them function in society. Society requires certain behaviours that a child needs to be explicitly taught. For example lying is wrong but white lies are kind and tactful. Neglecting to teach a child these things means they'll have a much harder time making friends and greasing the wheels of sociak interactions. Social skills are in many ways more valuable than academic skills and allowing a child not to say sorry because they don't feel sorry is about as bad as allowing a child to hit in order to get what they want. In both cases the child fails to learn the correct social interaction.

Live example

We have just discovered DS2 did something that has resulted in something DD bought with her birthday money being useless. He has been made to pay her the cost of it out of his pocket money and DH sent him to the step. I said to him he has done something that means his sister is upset to lose something and what does he need to say. He spat out "sorry" and clearly didn't mean it. He is still arguing whether the item is broken too.

I just feel we handled this all wrong.

Don't know much about attachment parenting; what would the attachment parents view be on this???

missStrawberry, I think at 22 months, in op's case, saying sorry is enough. But of course by the time they are old enough to have pocket money (I don't know how old your children are), they need to say what exactly they are sorry for and it's not enough to just say it in a begrudging tone!

That's a hard one-did he mean to break it, or do it accidentally? Maybe him paying it back is too harsh if it was an accident and he would feel more remorse without that. That said, you are meant to make the punishment for the crime...

It was stupid. He put something in the freezer ffs which means it now can't be used for what it was meant. Just discovered damage on the trampoline and earlier one of them broke the pump for blowing up the air beds. I am sick of it.

But surely we teach children to say lots of things they don't fully understand the meaning of until they are older, for example 'thank you'.

What child really grasps the full appreciation behind a genuine 'thank you' until they are older. Nevertheless we teach them to say it (well I do).

I do agree with not forcing hugging with a sorry. My friend makes her dd give mine a cuddle as an apology when she's just whacked dd. The very last thing dd wants from someone who has just hit her is more physical contact!

MissStrawberry
You sent your 12 year old son to the naughty step? Did I understand that correctly?

I think that in this case, I would have sat down with him and said, 'Ok, I realise that you didn't mean to destroy your sister's belongings, but you are old enough to know not to put stuff in the freezer. I think you should make amends, what do you suggest?'

You can't treat him like a toddler on the one hand (making him apologise, naughty step) then like an adult on the other (having to replace broken item).

I have no idea what AP parents do. I don't follow any particular style of parenting, other than the basic principle of respecting each other.

No, my 8 year old. But my 12 year old does get sent to the step when he acts like a toddler though usually we use other sanctions.

I have no idea if what I do is "attachment parenting". Like MmeLindor I work on the same principle of respecting each other in an age appropriate manner.

My attitude to disciplinary methods, such as counting to five, or naughty steps, is that if the same misdemeanour keeps occuring, the disciplinary method isn't working. You shouldn't have to keep sending your child to the naughty step/time out - if you do then that method is not working for your child. We don't do third chances either - one chance only to correct her behaviour.

What we do is that we remove DD from the situation, sit calmly with her whilst we wait for the tears/temper to subside, and then, when she is able to converse as rationally as a 3 year old can converse, we discuss, in an age appropriate manner, why her behaviour was wrong and what we/she can do to make amends and prevent the behaviour re-occuring. I know we are lucky to have an extremely polite and well-behaved little girl, but I do think that the way we enforce gentle discipline has long term benefits and helps maintain DD's strong independent and adventurous streak, whilst instilling polite and appropriate behaviour.

I saw this method referred to as a "time in", as opposed to a "time out" - I guess it is the way of the world to label everything these days.

Ultimately it's about getting children to behave well and to respect other people because they want to, not because they feel they have to, or because they fear discipline.