Don't force apologies -what does this mean?

[Vijac]

I have a toddler and I have not made a decision to parent in any particular style, I am just doing what feels right and taking advice and ideas from where I choose.

I am interested in attachment parenting as one influence and I was reading something on discipline where it said 'don't force apologies', it should come from the heart. My son is 22 months and when he does something naughty eg. Pulls my hair, or deliberately pours a cup of milk on the floor, I tell him he shouldn't do that, and why eg. 'It makes a mess and now I have to clear it up when I'd like to be playing' and I then ask him to say sorry and give me a kiss. He usually does this happily but I have had to ask him a few times before when he has been being a bit grumpy about it. Is this approach wrong or damaging? I do also acknowledge his feelings eg. I know you are frustrated because you want xyz but you mustn't pull hair because you hurt mummy, say sorry to me. Then after he has apologised I move on. I do want to encourage good manners, but I don't want to stifle individuality and creativity. I'd say the sorry thing probably happens about twice a day. Any advice or thoughts?

I don't know what ap means either, but I do know that in all the years I was raised as a child of three siblings, I was constantly being forced to apologise for some sin or the other. Not once, despite some epic mistakes, did I EVER hear my DM say sorry for anything

I apologised to my DC; didn't have time to do something, interrupting a game for bedtime, forgetting a bit of gym kit, all those little things.

Mine are teens now and often apologise to each other and to me for the usual domestic transgressions we all commit.

I agree with whoever up thread said just model polite behaviour. Don't be a hypocrite and remember their agendas aren't always the same as yours (science experiments involving freezers being a great example!)

Just like you should never insist that they say
Please
Thank You
Excuse me
May I...

After all, what's the point of saying those things if they aren't fully sincere?

Oh wait, maybe there IS a point in teaching our children social forms before they are too old to understand why or feel it full heartedly. To teach them reflexive habits and when they are mature enough they can choose whether those things need to be said sincerely.

I have no idea how you teach empathy without making them acknowledge their mistakes. That's what Sorry means at a young age: Not, "I feel genuine remorse for what I did" but "I acknowledge I've done something to you I shouldn't."

And even if "sorry" could ONLY mean remorse, We do social lies ALL the time. We do it constantly. We wouldn't get anywhere in the world if we didn't. Sometimes form does take precedent over substance.

This is really interesting. My DD is only 11 months so this hasn't come up yet.

I am an upper primary school teacher and have, in the past, discussed this with children. I have taught children that they do not have to accept an apology if they do not believe the sincerity of the words.

Scotland is using Restorative Conversations in schools which seem to focus on making restitution as a visible action to back up the words.

An example from my last class (Primary 6) would be a child who behaved unacceptably to a DHT when I was out of class. He refused to follow her instructions, screamed at her and stormed out of class (after the bell). In the morning, I asked him to tell me what happened and he accepted his behaviour was unacceptable. He decided to apologise. I suggested he needed to repair his relationship with this adult through a restorative action. He decided he would tidy the gym hall every lunchtime thus giving up his playtime.

Get what you mean about 'restorative action' but I think the wronged person also needs to learn how to forgive...

DS learned to say please and thank you from us always saying it to each other and him.

Since I don't go around throwing toys or whacking his father and grandparents, he hasn't had much of a chance to learn 'Sorry' for things like that - only accidental situations - eg. bumping into him, dropping something I was passing to him (ie. polite apologies, rather than remorseful ones)

If he hits me, I do make him say sorry - it gives him a chance to calm down and it puts a full stop under the behaviour so we can go back to playing even if it's insincere (he generally initiates the hug after saying it too).

I think that using it in that way is a good start for a toddler, who doesn't really have great self control yet, so needs quick forgiveness when he forgets himself

I think there's a difference between a "social nicety" sorry and a heartfelt one, and they both have their place. I don't think that children can do the heartfelt one until they develop a proper sense of empathy, but the social nicety one can start very early- just like please and thank you and excuse me. Nobody really expects a child to be sincerely grateful every time they say "thank you". Why expect genuine remorse for "sorry"?nit just makes life pleasanter for everyone. It's important that the grown ups use it too. And that siblings are expected to use it to each other. Even pre verbal ones. They might have to speak through a parent though!

I agree daftdame but I also feel it's important to acknowledge that it isn't a requirement. If a child has punched you yet again in the playground and mutters sorry it is ok not to accept it as it is worthless. An apology should be a catalyst for change in behaviour and/or true remorse.

I'm not sure of the rights and wrongs here. I'm just reminded of my extremely rude and selfish niece who stated loud and clear that she was no longer going to say sorry unless she was genuinely at fault and genuinely sorry for what she did. She never says sorry. She's 20 years old .

I supppose even a crap, muttered apology concedes responsibility stargirl?

Another thing is the "saying sorry if it wasn't done on purpose" thing. That's something parents have to model. I remember my ds going though a phase of whining "But it was an accerrrrrdeeerrrnnnnnt!"

I guess we need to dream up a completely new way of parenting then as so far nothing has worked as we are still saying the same things over and over again .

I just don't think 'sorry' is the same as please, thank you, excuse me etc.

Sorry, when it matters, usually comes in a situation that is tense because someone is hurt or something important has been ruined. Yes it is useful when you bump into someone but in the other situations there is all sorts of possibilities for shame, humiliation and escalating tension.

I decided not to force my ds to say sorry when we were at a big party and another child deliberately hurt him. Her father swoopped in and while I was trying to comfort ds, tried to make her say sorry. It got to the point that she was squriming in his arms and crying and shouting "No, No, NO!". I thought "Who is this charade for? Ds is upset and I want to comfort him, not wait here for an apology that she doesn't want to make." Her dad said to me "She means sorry even if she doesn't say it." And I thought, what a crock, basically! It's to make the parent feel they are doing something about their errant child.

(If it had been my ds, I would have apologised to the other child/parent, checked they were ok and then dragged him off to a corner to hear exactly WHY what he did was wrong and how upset he'd made the other child.)

My ds says please, thank you, sorry etc because I say them. Basically I tell him we say them to make other people happy. I also tell him please means you are more likely to get what you want!

Atm I am teaching him if he makes a mess to help clear it up. Once he is a bit older I am planning to ask him what he thinks he could do to make it better, a bit like StarGirl was saying. I think that is suggested in How to Talk...

Agree about not forcing hugs and kisses.

stargirl1701 Yes ,absolutely a genuine apology should be a catalyst for a change in behaviour. However if a child has not yet acquired the skills to enable them to change (control their anger and frustration for example) you might have to be patient with them and help them acquire those skills it you are the one with responsibility for them.

^ that should be '...if you are the one...'

I think this is one of the most interesting thread I've read in mn in a long time- that hasn't degenerated into a slanging match.

Firstly to the op, I think ap or no ap that you have to make parenting choices based on what your values are. I think it's interesting and healthy to reflect on what you're doing and why, and as a teacher it's what I'm encouraged to do, but if you want your dc to say sorry then you go right ahead!

Regarding apologies - making and accepting, I think that yes, sorry can sometimes be an empty word, and in my classroom I know that some children say it as a 'get out'. A poster up thread mentioned accepting apologies, and I don't think you always have to accept the apology immediately. If, for example, a favourite toy or something that I really valued had been broken on purpose I don't think I'd accept the apology right away- or expect a child to in the same situation. I think in situations like that allowing all parties breathing space is best so that everybody calms down.

I know if I've had arguments with dp that sometimes we need a couple of hours to let the dust settle before we make up again.

And I'm very old-fashioned and think manners are extremely important. Both in school and at home.

Very much agree with inconfidence about dcs apologising for the benefit of an adult. I've had this before when a little boy ran over my foot with his scooter. He was really embarrassed and his mum was forcing him to apologise. I felt really uncomfortable for him- we were in an area where IMO there were too many people for him to be riding the scooter in the first place so yes, I think the parent should have apologised and taken the scooter off him and said he could carry on somewhere more appropriate.,

I really agree with lijkk. 'Sorry' has more than one meaning, and is an extremely important concept in societal functioning.

Think about it -- you're walking down the street and bump into someone. Do you only say sorry if you're 100% sure it was your fault and feel bad about it? or do you just automatically say sorry in case it was your fault and to prevent any bad feelings?

In the case of MissStrawberry -- if I got a snapped 'sorry' in that case, I would probably say, That's not how you apologise properly, why don't you think about it for 10 minutes and I'll come back and ask again. If I came back and they still weren't sorry then I'd ask them to explain why. If they said 'because it was an accident' then I'd explain that sometimes we say sorry even when we didn't mean to cause harm, if we've caused someone else to be really upset.

Otherwise you are basically teaching them that you can harm other people unintentionally and not have to feel sorry or bad about it, and I don't think that's right.

I totally agree with Lljkk.

illjkk
No one is saying that it shouldn't be taught. The discussion is whether it should be forced.

My kids are 11yo and 9yo and have never been forced to say sorry. I am often complimented on their charming manners, so they must have learned it somehow...

MissStrawberry
My mum told me about the naughty step, and we tried it for a while but I found it didn't help. If you are finding the same, then look for a different way of dealing with your DS. I do think that 'naughty step' is more suitable for younger DC, if at all.

I have found that saying to DS 'why don't you go and sit in your room for a few minutes so that you can calm down and think about what just happened'. Not 'GO TO YOUR ROOM YOU HORRIBLE BOY' (not saying you do this, but it is how I feel inside sometimes).

I once totally lost it with DS cause he deliberately destroyed a book belonging to his sister. It has pics of her kindergarten friends (we had moved away so it was very precious to her). He was totally remorseless so I snapped his favourite DVD in half.

Later I said to him that it was an overreaction and that I was sorry that I had done it, but I was so angry on behalf of DD. I think it was a good lesson for both of us.

I can highly recommend the book 'How to talk so kids will listen'.

I must admit that I do 'force' children to day 'sorry' I'm not sure I see any problem with it. As adults we say sorry all the time when we don't mean it. It's a polite social nicety. If someone barges into me by accident I automatically say sorry; I'm not sorry, I didn't do anything. But it's a nice polite automatic response. I'd like my children to grow up with this same automatic response. Many adults don't have it; often if myself and another adult bump into each other, I say sorry and the other person completely blanks me! This is rude and bad manners. Maybe they weren't sorry; but doesn't mean they shouldn't say it IMO! Children have to do things they don't want, same as adults; that's life. I don't see any harm in teaching a child that from an early age. If I ask a child to say sorry and they refuse, I'd ask them to sit and think about it, once calmed down I'd insist on an apology. If done begrudgingly I'd persist until it was said properly. I don't think young children are mature enough to decide for themselves when to apologise. I think it's the adults job to tell them. I would hope that by the time my children are old enough to have the empathy necessary to genuinely apologise, the concept will be so ingrained that it will be an automatic response. I don't want my children to grow into the type of adult that will barge into you at the supermarket, then walk on by without so much as a sorry; and sadly this is far from unusual!

Absolutely daftdame. From the teacher's perspective the behaviour is easier to accept and deal with. I tend to know why a child behaves like that and can make allowances. But, it is very hard for another 9/10 year old to make that leap. That child should know a meaningless apology doesn't have to be accepted.

stargirl
I meant to say - I liked your post about what your school is doing. We are in Scotland too and I am so impressed with out school. The teachers are really brilliant.

Stargirl Yep I agree it can be very hard for a 9/10 year old (or even 20 year old for that matter) to make that leap of being able to recognise when people are just not very proficient at certain social niceties.An apology can be completely genuine, at the time, but they then go on to make exactly the same mistake again.

I think this still can be tackled though, in perhaps a more general way, that forgiveness is important in order to be able to move on from a situation. It is part of reconciliation.

I'm another parent who doesn't particularly follow any one type of parenting. My children are taught to say sorry and the older ones at 6 and 8 are very good at saying it without sincerely and without being prompted. In fact, even my 3 year old is pretty good at it. I never forced it at the sort of age your child is though. I don't know about anyone else but I HATE it when me or my child is on the receiving end of one of those forced toddler apologies...you're all having to stand around awkwardly while a parent repeats over and over again to their 2 year old 'say sorry' because they pushed or hit your child. The toddler digs their heels in because their parent has gone into battle mode. Now, on top of my child being hit or whatever they are now being forced to stand and witness this battle when they'd rather just forget the whole thing and run off and play!

By all means bring the toddler over and reprimand them in front of the injured party, ask them to say sorry and when they refuse say sorry yourself. Then move on!!

worldgonecrazy Fri 16-Aug-13 08:16:13
"I have no idea if what I do is "attachment parenting". Like MmeLindor I work on the same principle of respecting each other in an age appropriate manner.

My attitude to disciplinary methods, such as counting to five, or naughty steps, is that if the same misdemeanour keeps occuring, the disciplinary method isn't working. You shouldn't have to keep sending your child to the naughty step/time out - if you do then that method is not working for your child. "

I'd say that depends on the child. Some are simply very stubborn and need a few weeks months of testing before they can feel sure that you are really not going to cave in. I was one such child. Dd was another. Switching desperately between disciplining/distraction methods wasn't necessarily going to help.