awful morning with dd, very sad now.

[SugarBatty]

Quick back story, dd is 8 and just started year 4. Ds is 9 months I'm due back at work next month. Dd adores ds and is mostly a well behaved happy girl. She is however sometimes quite stroppy, doesn't let things go lots of back chat etc. She gets 4 pounds pocket money a week but if she misbehaves and ignores warnings etc she knows she will lose 50p pocket money.

This morning was just awful and it just seemed to happen over nothing. She seemed to wake up quite grumpy had to tell her lots of times to put on uniform. Made her and ds porridge she rudely complained it was horrible so I offered her yoghurt, weetabix or crunchy nut. She said "fine then I'll just eat it" I explained she didn't have to it was fine I'd just throw it out. She asked me to make her some more with water instead of milk so I did and she ate it. I asked her 3 times to go get her hair stuff she eventually stomped off. On her way she caught her foot on the stair gate. I was changing ds so I called to ask if ok and reminded her to open it fully so not to catch her foot again. She shouted "see you don't care" I asked to look at foot she said. "There's nothing to see" I returned to asking to do hair, she stroppily handed me the spray so I sprayed she screamed I had sprayed her eye. I said it wasn't on purpose if I did, I honestly don't think I did! She snatched spray off me and aimed it at my eye and tried to spray and said "see how you like it" at this point I got up and picked up ds told her off and said "stop it now that is not acceptable your behaviour is awful and I'm going to go away from you, you can do your hair yourself and brush your teeth and come down when your done" she then began grabbing me and pinching me and trying to stop me leaving the room and sayying "do my hair" I went to leave the room and she threw the tangle teezer at me back. I shouted at her how silly it was as could have hit the baby. I took baby downstairs and strapped in pram so he was out of the way.

I went back up and she was laid on her bed hair not done. I told her to do her hair and get coat and shoes on as she would be late she said "I don't care I'm not doing it you can't make me go to school and drag me there" I said there would not be pocket money she said"so what I don't care" I went to leave her room she came and stood it front of me and started hitting me this continued to top of the stairs where she pushed me hard so I smacked her twice on her upper arm to stop her hitting me. She stopped so I really told her off. She stroppily went and did hair and got coat on she told me she hated me and wished I would go and never come back! By this time we were ten mins late for school so tried to draw a line under it. I told her I loved her but did not like how she behaved and it was not acceptable to hit me and I need her to do what I say so we are not late. I reassured her I loved her as much as I do ds and tried to cuddle her but she shrugged me off. We walked to school and teacher was about to shut the door so gave her a hug and told her to forget about it for now and she began to cry. The teacher called her in so hurridely told teacher we were running late and she was a bit upset as didn't want to go into the whole thing.

I feel so sad now and worried she is having a horrible day. I have never smacked her but it was like she had lost control and couldn't stop herself so I did it to stop her. Her behaviour was bad and I am going to follow through with consequences as I want her to realise its not ok to do what she did.

Where did I go wrong and how can I make it right. Sorry its long.

Dont beat yourself up we all have bad days. When your dd gets home from school sit her down and calmly ask her why she behaved like she did and did she think it was acceptable behaviour. Tell her that it upsets you when she misbehaves and you dont enjoy shouting at her. Has she just started behaving like this? It sounds like she is a little jeleous of younger dd, do you spend time with her alond when younger dd is in bed?

Oh sugar I don't have older dcs (only one DD 22 months) so I don't really have experience, but you sound like a lovely mum. You come across as very reasonable and patient with whinging etc. and it sounds like things just went a bit exceptionally out of control this morning. I'd say you handled it well and wrapped it up in a positive reassuring way and your DD will have put it all behind her by the time she comes home. I also don't see anything to beat yourself up about regarding the two slaps on the arm - it's clearly not something you normally do and I can see how you would have been thrown and reacted to a barrage of hitting and pushing - especially at the top of the stairs which is just not on. Sounds like a bad day, but something to put behind you. Hope you have a nice evening together and that the "storm" will have cleared the air for some time to come.

*Alone even

We have all had days like this and you will feel horrible but I suggest she is happily playing at school without a thought of it. Just have a big cuddle when she gets home and some one to one time if you can,baking or something. Tiredness (hers and yours I guess)plays a part even my older DCs are tired first week back, It will be fine.

Thank you, I just feel so bad it wasn't properly sorted before school but there wasn't time as we were late. Dd could be jealous of ds but the whole family makes a big effort to make a fuss. I put him to bed about half seven and then me and dd cuddle up on sofa for girly time and I always read her a story. She was an only child for 7 years though. Jist spoke to my very wise mum who loves dd to bits, my parents spend a lot of time with dd and do lots for her. My mum said she thinks dd says things about ds being more special than her when she isn't getting her own way! Last week when I went on a training day mum had both kids and dd kept saying things like "you like ds better than me" but only when my mum was telling her not to do something.

I do wonder if its her hormones too as took her to docs last year as she has started to develop breast buds.

It doesn't sound like you did anything wrong, she was having a bad morning and you did the best you could.

You sound like a very caring and loving mum and I am sure your dd is not miserable at school. Try to put it behind you and if she mentions it tonight then sit down and talk about it. You have already told her you love her but you don;t like the behaviour and you can just emphasize that again. She did get very physically aggressive towards you and I think you need to make it clear that that kind of behaviour is totally unacceptable and WILL NOT be tolerated.

Hopefully you can make tomorrow a fresh start!!

Definitely sounds hormonal to me! Is she slightly bigger than average for her age? It's quite common these days for 9 year olds to start periods, and with breast buds she's obviously started puberty. She won't understand why she is feeling so bad, and so I can see how it's easy for her brother to become a target. Sounded like you handled it excellently.

i would try and put her to bed an hour earlier tonight, maybe she's overtired?

i know when my 5yr old kicks off, i usually leave him for 30 secs to let off steam, then go back to him, amd offer a hug. this helps to calm him. I figure no point both of us getting worked up over whatever it is.

it is hard though, and they are testing boundaries. she'll know not to mess around again tomorrow I would think, and yes, she's most probably trying to assert herself with e new baby being around - does she get time to play with the baby and nurture it, as if it were hers? This may help her bond with it, under your supervision of course, all 3 of you sitting on floor together, chatting, reading, etc?

hope you are ok

Mine aren't that old yet so don't have experience of this yet but:

1. my sympathies, sounds horrible and I'm not surprised you are upset
2. If this is not a regular thing, how bad would it be if she had gone in a little late to school so you could have removed the urgency from the situation? (I'm genuinely asking - I have no idea if this would be a terrible idea or not) but in the stress of getting DS (3) and DD (1) out of the door in the mornings sometimes in time for his pre-school, sometimes I think, right, if we're late we're late, I will deal with x first, calmly and we'll leave when we're ready. If it IS a regular occurance perhaps you could talk to the school about instigating some sort of sanction for when she's late so she knows that if her behaviour causes lateness, it has a further consequence?
3. Hope tomorrow is better!

You sound like a lovely mum, but I do think you need to stop indulging her.

Made her and ds porridge she rudely complained it was horrible so I offered her yoghurt

I explained she didn't have to it was fine I'd just throw it out.

She asked me to make her some more with water instead of milk so I did

She snatched spray off me and aimed it at my eye

she then began grabbing me and pinching me and trying to stop me leaving the room and sayying "do my hair"

I went to leave the room and she threw the tangle teezer at me back

And that's just for starters - there follows a violent episode of her hitting you some more, and then getting cuddled and told to forget it??!!

People are saying we all have days like this? I do not. With three kids, I have never had a morning like that.

She rules the roost and you let her!

Agree with pictish.

Please stop piling on the guilt - she is 8 and should by now be able to follow and do simple tasks without having to be paid and bribed into it. The fact is that regardless of what happened, she engaged you in a game you didn't want to play .... Just say no and don't play along or indulge it

Made her and ds porridge she rudely complained it was horrible so I offered her yoghurt, weetabix or crunchy nut

Now at this point I would have told her (politely) that she could make her own breakfast because I wasn't going to be spoken to like that.

If the rudeness continued then I would have taken her to her room, told her that she could come down when she had calmed down and we would start again.

I'm not convinced that it's hormonal tbh - my dd is occasionally rude and stroppy as you've descibed but has had episodes like that since she was about 2!!

I've never experienced violence from any of my four children; I agree with Pictish that you don't experience an episode like that and then give them cuddles! Hitting and pinching me would have resulted in massive sanctions in this house.

And mine - not that they would dare in the first place.

Breakfast in here is whatever I deign to give them and that's it.
They get a choice between the three or so cereals available, or a piece of toast.
Once it is served that's it - my part is over. Eat it or don't.

She is rude and you fall over yourself to please her, offering an array of items and following her instructions to remake her breakfast. She repays you that kindness by spraying stuff in your eye and hitting you?

Time to crack down OP.

I'll make porridge if we have time, but serving cereals?! No way! Mine have been quite capable of getting cereals, toast etc since they were about 3 yo (not so capable of clearing up after themselves though )

I am really interested to hear from mums who have successfully put good firm rules in place. I do think sugar sounds lovely and very patient and I'm interested that others think she needs to toughen up, as that wasn't what struck me. Actually, I'm very afraid of not being tough enough myself - as I mentioned my DD is 22 months, but she is stroppy, hits at times and prone to tantrums. She's also a bit of a late talker, so I'm thinking/hoping it's partly frustration. I'd love some tips about how to get some firm limits in place though - what have pictish, minivers and fleshwound done to get good respect for parental authority in place? Naughty step? Other approachs? Am really interested and admiring of those who feel they have done a good job.

Thanks for replies. I think looking back I have been guilty of making idle threats and not seeing through punishments so think I need to put strategies in place and stick to them. My parents are very soft on dd and she gets away with a lot especially my dad. My mum lately has had a few run ins with dd and agrees now she needs more discipline. Because they have helped out looking after her whilst I worked I used to just bite my tongue when I felt they were letting her get her own way all the time. So I always felt I was 'bad cop' at home. I have being with my partner 4 years and they have a good relationship but he takes a back seat as I would rather I was the 'bad cop' iyswim.

This morning was very out the blue though and I was quite scared by the intensity of her rage. Is it normal for a child to lash out like that, it wasn't even as if their was a big event it was little things that led to it!

She loves her brother so much she is like a little mum sometimes always cuddling him and playong with him and helping out getting wipes and choosing his clothes for the day. If he hurts himself she will cry out of worry for him. We give her so much praise for how good a sister she us and dd dp and ds are always playing happily together and messing about while I'm making dinner etc.

We do lots of days out with her and she has ballet lessons and give her choices of where we go at weekends. I leave ds with dp and take her out on our own so we have special time. It was like she was a volatile teenager. Iv heard of a book called the explosive child, would anyone recommend it?

It's a fair point - I do it simply because I cba with the resultant mess if I let them do it themselves. I remember the rice krispie incident all too well.

Look - it sounds like I'm having a horrible go at you OP - I don't mean to really - but it is obvious to me that the power balance in your house is not as it should be. You daughter is rude, demanding, ungracious and violent to you all in one morning, and your answer is to cuddle her and urge her to forget it.
No. You ought to address it. With her. Firmly.

Then you need to have a good thibnk about what behaviours you will and will not tolerate from her, and present her with an closed case about it.

If you do not, you are going to find it harder and harder to control her.

My DD is also 8 and in year 4 OP..she's JUST like yours. BUt it's not hormones....my DD is small for her age and nowhere near developing. I do think this is a hard time...they're expected to be "big" but they're still actually quite small!

Had mine been born a bit later, she'd be just entering year 3...which would be more suited to her tbh!

It's just adjustment...she will be fine when you get her later.

I think I just wanted to sort it before school as didn't want it to impact on her school day as its only the first week back. I felt under pressure as the clock was against us as ds was going for settling in visit at new childminders. I start off with reward charts etc but never see it through because her behaviour mostly is good so there is no need, but when she blows she blows! Her temper is very fierce yet she is a very loving and caring little girl. Its like its not her and she sees red and couldn't control herself or stop herself. She needs to stop herself though as it really isn't acceptable how she behaved.

Btw I'm appreciating ALL advice given as I accept I'm not doing the right thing! Under 3's iv got it cracked I think as I work with that age but I'm finding this age the hardest yet with friendships and emotions. Any strategies are appreciated greatly.

SSW - I think a lot of it is just consistency, plus forewarning - so they know that once breakfast is chosen, that's it, no other option, and then you calmly stick to that. Again and again and again. dd is 5, ds 2, and ds (currently dipping crusts into yoghurt - erk) can really rant about these things sometimes, but I am more stubborn than he is, and he caves more quickly these days. There are times when you realise that they've made a perfectly reasonable request, but if you need to back down, do it quickly, not after 20 mins dispute - all that says that 20 minutes ranting will get you somewhere, whereas quickly backing down says that reasonable behaviour can have an effect, iyswim.

But forewarning of the rules/deal every day is really important with little ones - remind them right at the start what's going to happen, what the options are and what's expected of them. And then again...

Sugar - that was aimed at SSW, not you, btw. Don't have an 8 yo yet, so will comment when I do! I would try to be consistent, fwiw, and let her see that her boundaries are just the same - it reflects safety and security, I think, despite how much they rail against it.

Why offer alternatives to breakfast - The family are having oats and the choice is eat it or don't ...

Come here and let me do you hair - you are messing about, then sorry, you go to school with undone hair ...

Don't give alternatives and wiggle room and choice and be consistent.

It isn't rocket science, I don't profess to be a whizz at any parenting, but it works for me.