awful morning with dd, very sad now.

[SugarBatty]

Quick back story, dd is 8 and just started year 4. Ds is 9 months I'm due back at work next month. Dd adores ds and is mostly a well behaved happy girl. She is however sometimes quite stroppy, doesn't let things go lots of back chat etc. She gets 4 pounds pocket money a week but if she misbehaves and ignores warnings etc she knows she will lose 50p pocket money.

This morning was just awful and it just seemed to happen over nothing. She seemed to wake up quite grumpy had to tell her lots of times to put on uniform. Made her and ds porridge she rudely complained it was horrible so I offered her yoghurt, weetabix or crunchy nut. She said "fine then I'll just eat it" I explained she didn't have to it was fine I'd just throw it out. She asked me to make her some more with water instead of milk so I did and she ate it. I asked her 3 times to go get her hair stuff she eventually stomped off. On her way she caught her foot on the stair gate. I was changing ds so I called to ask if ok and reminded her to open it fully so not to catch her foot again. She shouted "see you don't care" I asked to look at foot she said. "There's nothing to see" I returned to asking to do hair, she stroppily handed me the spray so I sprayed she screamed I had sprayed her eye. I said it wasn't on purpose if I did, I honestly don't think I did! She snatched spray off me and aimed it at my eye and tried to spray and said "see how you like it" at this point I got up and picked up ds told her off and said "stop it now that is not acceptable your behaviour is awful and I'm going to go away from you, you can do your hair yourself and brush your teeth and come down when your done" she then began grabbing me and pinching me and trying to stop me leaving the room and sayying "do my hair" I went to leave the room and she threw the tangle teezer at me back. I shouted at her how silly it was as could have hit the baby. I took baby downstairs and strapped in pram so he was out of the way.

I went back up and she was laid on her bed hair not done. I told her to do her hair and get coat and shoes on as she would be late she said "I don't care I'm not doing it you can't make me go to school and drag me there" I said there would not be pocket money she said"so what I don't care" I went to leave her room she came and stood it front of me and started hitting me this continued to top of the stairs where she pushed me hard so I smacked her twice on her upper arm to stop her hitting me. She stopped so I really told her off. She stroppily went and did hair and got coat on she told me she hated me and wished I would go and never come back! By this time we were ten mins late for school so tried to draw a line under it. I told her I loved her but did not like how she behaved and it was not acceptable to hit me and I need her to do what I say so we are not late. I reassured her I loved her as much as I do ds and tried to cuddle her but she shrugged me off. We walked to school and teacher was about to shut the door so gave her a hug and told her to forget about it for now and she began to cry. The teacher called her in so hurridely told teacher we were running late and she was a bit upset as didn't want to go into the whole thing.

I feel so sad now and worried she is having a horrible day. I have never smacked her but it was like she had lost control and couldn't stop herself so I did it to stop her. Her behaviour was bad and I am going to follow through with consequences as I want her to realise its not ok to do what she did.

Where did I go wrong and how can I make it right. Sorry its long.

You do sound very very nice. Keep on keeping on, but don't let any of this take hold.
I say you've had the shock you need to address some discipline issue - and I definitely feel you need to get your dp on board. The more he backs you up, the better.

Sugar - I'm thinking ultimately for your sake as much as for DD's.

When my friend comes round and her DD has been playing up (she's 15 and a really lovely girl but at the end of the day, she's a teenager!), the fact that her DH rarely backs her up upsets her almost as much as her DD's behaviour in the first place.

It sounds like you're a lovely family and you DD is almost looking for reasons to push you away to test your reaction. I just wonder if it is hormonal and that she's trying to make sense of it by doing this.

My DD doesn't have any siblings to 'experiment' with as far as her moods are concerned, but I can guarantee she'd be a nightmare if she did - she loves being an only child!

My 9 year old DS is not a morning person which I can sympathise with up to a point (neither am I) and he can be a bit like this but mostly he's learned that:

If he's awkward about breakfast - either because he can't decide, or doesn't eat it, or he is too slow and we have to leave before he's finished - he goes to school hungry. Missing breakfast isn't great, granted but it won't kill him and I found it only happened a couple of times before he saw sense.

Not being ready for school on time, whether because of being slow or stropping would result in me saying "Fine - I'm taking your brother to school. I will come back for you but we WILL be explaining to the office that you're late because....(insert stupid reason here)"

DS gets £3 a week pocket money and a major kick off at any time of day results in the loss of a whole pound (!) minor transgressions lose maybe 20p (and may be earned back for exceptional behaviour) but something like you describe would be heavily fined with no relenting.

You need to get tougher! Eight is plenty old enough to stamp on this sort of behaviour. You say she doesn't care about pocket money - fine. Pick something she does care about, use it and stick to it. DS (avaricious, sweet-toothed little bugger that he is) still has his moments but soon realised (despite plenty of initial "Don't care" bluster, just like your DD) that the only way he was getting sweets was if he behaved and ended up with his pocket money.

Honestly, I know it's hard but an adult wouldn't get away with treating an employee the way she's treating you!

Sugar DS1 (8) and I have had mornings like this this week. He is normally an easy going, obliging lad so it can come as a bit of a shock.

I have put it down to nerves (which he won't admit to) about the beginning of school and new teacher.

But he has lost all his screen privileges for the last three days. I try to get to the bottom of things, help him see why he's behaving as he is, but when it doesn't change there are consequences.

From your OP, you sound a bit guilty about the time your DS is taking from your DD. But you're a family - everyone mucks in. At some point, things just need to be done without treats or rewards. Everyone needs to pull their weight a bit - it's not too much to expect an 8 year old to follow instructions to get ready in the morning.

When my older ones complain that our youngest gets away with things or it's not fair, I show them photos of when they were his age and what I did with them. I tell them stories about what they were like at that age and how much looking after they needed. I'm trying to show them that even though they can't see it now, everyone in the family got that extra bit of care at some stage and that it all evens out in the end. (Bit waffly there but hope you understand what I'm trying to say).

Is everything ok at school? I know I tend to have a short fuse when something's bothering me.

....forgot to say, although its pretty obvious, you have to be prepared to go through with the school thing. I totally was. I only had to do it once. Got myself and DS1 in the car, started it up and began reversing off the drive. Cue a ruffled DS2 exploding out of the door, jumper half on, hopping on one leg trying frantically to put the other shoe on, squawking away indignantly. But again you have to mean it. I think kids are very wise to bluffing when they get a bit older than toddlerdom.

Dunno, Hully - I wouldn't be happy with a grown adult being rude and stroppy about food I'd made them either. I do see your point about everyone having bad days, and yes, talk to dd about this, and say sorry when I've been wrong, but I do also think that there is a level of... um... civility, I guess, which we should all be able to expect from each other to be able to function as a family or a society.

What dh and I do for each other is to try and say first of all if we're feeling off or grumpy, as a kind of pre-emptive apology, and have said to dd that it helps if we know she's not feeling great to start with, as it allows you to cut them a bit more slack. Not always easy to work this out when you're little, but something to work on.

OP, I've found Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish's book "How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk" very helpful. It's about acknowledging children's feelings (which in my experience often is all they need), giving them information and choices (that you both can live with) to help you both problem solve the situation you're in.

It really does work in taking the drama out of these situations - my only criticism of the book would be that the authors often give useful verbal responses for various situations which would sound really weird in my part of the world - just because they're Americanised and therefore could sound fake coming from me. However, the principles are really sound - I just make sure I use my own "voice"/phrasing.

Oh, yy - I like that book a lot, once you reword it for yourself!

Don't worry sugarbatty, i've been in the same boat with mine, he's 8 going on 9 and i'm beginning to see changes in him. scary isn't it? Just be there for her best you can but make it clear you won't tolerate any disrespect. I know that guilt we can carry around with us in situations like these but don't let it cloud things, punish her if she's out of line and stick to your guns, things will be fine, it's just a difficult phase.

No Habb, I wouldn't be happy either, but if what they want if a fight, then defusing the situation and leaving it until later to discuss calmly is more effective (imo and e). I say, Don't be rude please, in a pleasant voice, and leave it at that to avoid escalation.

I have a dd who is nearly 8 and who can, to be honest, be a perfect little arse. I love her and she is generally ace but my God when she gets out of the wrong side of bed it is like having a bear in the house.

I can be just the same so I try to give her space, remember that if I was filmed 24/7 some of my parenting may not look perfect. However I do expect her to eventually 'come round' and then I talk through the morning - carefully so I don't guilt trip her - and that usually reveals a secret worry of varying magniture and also an apology. Worries that have afected mood have ranged from having no book to read, being worried about if the teacher will be grumpy, worrying about feeling ill for a trip that's planned for 3 weeks away and so on....also random things like where the head of the stupid doll from her school shoes is.

Try that?

My daughter, who was an absolute angel for the first 8 years of her life, had quite a few moments like this over the following 2 years. I had trouble knowing how to react to her because it was such a shock (coming from her). She often told me, after calming down, that "Something came over me; I couldn't help it; I know it's wrong". I think in her case it was hormonal, and it was also her unskilful attempt to stand up for herself (a positive thing), when she was used to always helping and being super-nice.

It is incredibly painful to have these moments, but I think it is normal and she will outgrow it. I was able to figure out things that triggered my daughter's reaction (feeling less clever than her older brothers, feeling unjustly treated, feeling someone was laughing at her), so I started heading off the tantrums.

yy help them to manage their moods and feelings rather than banning them.

Yes Hully and that my point about it OK to show she upset you, show emotion.

We have always being the types to talk things through and resolve issues so it really really got to me that she went into school with 'unfinished business' she did behave badly and their is no excuse and that needs to hit home with her. For her own sake too because its very sad that she lashed out like this. However I want to move forward in a positive way but still see through with a punishment, is that possible?

I will try that book, thank you for recommending it.

I sympathise as DS2 is nearly 8, just started year 3, and we've had a few bad mornings already this term escalating to something similar to your morning yesterday.

I try to walk away as much as possible and not engage. This is something I find really difficult - I can see some of my own childhood behaviour in him, and I've not changed that much (just managed to develop more control!). Unfortunately though, a bit of dictating the rules is hard to avoid when trying to get 3 children out to school on time.

If we can get out of the house with only DS having done the shouting and stamping we can generally talk about it over the 10-15 min walk to school, whereas if I lose it too I need to calm down first and that's when we end up with the awful goodbyes and worry all day that he's miserable.

I'm not sure there is a perfect solution to this - certainly my efforts don't seem to stop DS2 starting in the first place - but there are ways you could try to defuse the situation and you might need to try out more than one of the suggestions made upthread before you find out what works for you and DD.

The worst punishment for her will be you being sad and saying You really hurt me and you could have blinded me.

If you "punish" her, she will feel it has equalled out what she did and she won't have to process how bad she feels about it.

IMO.

I'd be careful of assuming bad behaviour = hormonal.

It is still relatively unusual for an 8 year old to be pubertal (breast buds don't equal imminent puberty) and whilst tempting to ascribe moodiness and stroppiness to hormones, it can be more due to emotional developmental changes rather than physical ones.

For me, the trick is consistency and boundaries. Yesterday my DD3 (just turned 6) was a hideous child that I would quite happily have swapped for a packet of newts. She wouldn't get dressed or brush her hair for breakfast club, so ended up going in her PJs armed with a bag of uniform and hairbrush. I had to carry her to the car as she refused to walk. She was vile.

I was firm but fair, told her if she wouldn't get ready (and I would help her if needed) then she'd go to school in her PJs. She wouldn't, so she did. I then had one very contrite little girl at 1500 at pick up, who apologised and was good as gold this morning!

I'm so naughty Sidge - I almost wish my DD would do something like that so I could taker her in her PJ's .

Given how appalling I am in the mornings though, it's more likely to be the other way round !

The other Mazlish & Faber book is "Siblings Without Rivalry". There's the "new wife exercise" in that book, which asks you to imagine your DH sits you down and says "I love you so much, you're so wonderful that I've decided to get another wife, who's going to come and live with us. Isn't that great!"... and it asks you how you would feel in that scenario. The comparison obviously being between the shift from only child to becoming a sibling, and how you feel about the "husband" in that scenario is likely how she feels about you. The lines that jumped out at me were her saying "see, you don't care about me!" and you saying "How silly, you could have hit the baby!" when she threw the brush... you took "his side", in her eyes, another "betrayal"... The "How to Talk" book is good at suggesting ways of asking her why she is angry, and getting her to express it more constructively, but the Sibling book is great at giving to tactics to balance the parental relationship between siblings.

Spiro it would make my mornings so much easier if I did that regularly!

Yes re what Hullygully said - the best "punishments" are natural consequences (ie you both had a dreadful morning) not punishments as such. Punishments IMO don't encourage children to process stuff because of the cancelling out thing which Hully mentioned. The idea then is to problem solve together how to prevent the mornings flaring up again.

Also good point from theMightMo - that line "see, you don't care about me!" also jumped out at me and could be a good opportunity to talk about those feelings (all feelings being allowed but not all behaviour).