Still feel like I am going crazy . . .

[PooPooInMyToes]

Continuuing on from this thread...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/parenting/1416699-I-feel-like-I-am-going-crazy?msgid=30335363

The behaviour this week has just been awful! A couple of days ago they had dressing up at school for Book Week. We didn't realise until the day before so that night we got out all the fancy dress, wittled it down to what could be said to be a book character, took out all the stuff that was too small etc and ended up with 2 different outfits plus a few generic princesses which she could get away with.

None were good enough. We acted really enthisiatic about 1 and thought maybe the enthusiatism would rub off, it didn't. Tried another one, same happened. In the end just said she had to chose one. By the next morning she still hadn't chosen and just sat in her room with a sulky face repeating that she wanted to be certain costume which we didn't have, isn't a book character and couldn't make out of what she has. In the end she was told that if she wasn't dressed by when we had to leave I would take her down the road to school naked.

Eventually she did get dressed but I had to enlist my DHs help and he really needed to get to work. I felt that I was just going to flip at her.

She had decided what she wanted and nothing else was good enough, even though what she wanted wasn't an option.

Today after school we watched some short stories on DVD. She wanted to chose every story we saw and when I let DD2 chose one she burst into tears and said that she had already chosen which wasn't true. Then she wanted me to fastforward through the bits she didn't like. I explained that her little sister wanted to see those bits even if she didn't. She didn't care. Just wanted what she wanted. She didn't get her own way.

Then it was bath time but she wanted to watch one more story even though the one before wasn't finished, she whined so I just turned it off. In the bath she was fine apart until it was time to get out. We have had such a fuss in the past about who gets out first (DD1 always used to winge and cry "but I always get out first!" which wasn't true) so we got a coin with a dolphin on one side and a flower on the other and we toss the coin to decide who gets out. Today they both wanted to be the same pic but eventually she said she would be the other. Tossed the coin and she lost and had to get out. Lost in her eyes that is, the other one gets out 2 secs later so it's hardly a big deal! So then she burst into tears about how she's always the dolphin or something. FFS!

I suggested that we get a coin to toss to decide who gets to be each side of the dolphin coin to decide who gets out of the bath first! Of course the sarcasm was lost on her.

Then going to bed she asked me if I would give her an extra cuddle in her bed. I told her I would but first I had to sort out DD2 who was sitting on the toilet covered in poo. She was in bed so I told her to stay there and I would be back in a few minutes and shut the door.

I went to see DD2 and needed a wet wipe so popped down stairs. The minute I was at the bottom of the stairs I could hear her out in the hall way shouting "where are you going?" "what are you doing?" "why did you shut my door?"

I came back up and told her firmly to get back into bed. She just kept saying the same things over and over. I explained again about the poo and the wet wipe and she just kept going on about the door being shut. I told her not to come out of her room again.

With her back in her room I went into the bathroom where DD2 was waiting and she came straight back out of her room again saying "why did you shut the door again?"

I lost the fecking plot! I shouted (can't even remember most of what I said) and told her it's none of her business if I close a door or not and that I don't need to explain everything to her. That she doesn't need to question every single thing I do. That I told her to get in bed and how dare she not do what she is told. She burst into tears again.

I put DD2 to bed all rushed (felt sorry for her) and went into DD1 room. I am so upset and disgusted with myself that I went loony at her. I was screaming and shouting that I am sick of her behaviour and that it's been disgusting all week and all she ever thinks about is her, it's all me me me, moan moan moan, whinge whinge whinge. I went on and on and on.

After I had calmed down we had a chat and a cuddle and I tried to explain how some of her behaviours are really not acceptable.

I am so fed up. All week (she does it a hell of a lot anyway but this week has been really bad) she has just been bursting into tears about everything, whining about everything. Complaining, demanding and generally being a nightmare.

I am sitting here crying because I don't know what to do.

She just keeps bursting into tears about everything. I just keep losing the plot and swearing at her.

Anyone help?

I'm so sorry to hear about ur tough time!! Pls don't cry... :( I'm afraid i can't help but didn't want to read and run!! My DD is 5.5 mo so have all this to come arghhhh! I hope somebody comes with some words of wisdom real soon. I'm sure ur dd prob needed a few firm words. But from someone who knows nowt I think it sounds like jealous of her little sis. Do u get much time just the two of u?! xxx

Thanks for your reply. I have chilled out a bit now but just feel so sad that I shouted at her like that. I feel like I have damaged her

I imagine her having therapy when she is an adult, hating me and feeling that I ruined her childhood.

I also feel sad that I just don't know how to handle her when she is in these moods. It's luckily she suddenly turns into a hyper sensitive super selfish child that I don't know and can't get through to. I can hardly explain things to her because as soon as you try she argues, says "but . . ." over and over or bursts into tears. It's so frustrating. I do want and try to be patient but it's infuriating.

I try to spend time with her on here own but it's not always that doable.

I would never have thought she was jealous although it was mentioned on the other thread as well so perhaps there is something in it. They are great little friends most of the time.

She has always been like this really. No sudden change. It just varies week to week depending on if she is a bit tired or something.

Thanks again.

Its like not luckily

You've got a child that would try the patience of a saint. Either you have to stop answering completely, ignore her and just get on with things or you have to give her firm 'no', 'stop' and 'I'm not asking you, I'm telling you' type commands and say them like you mean them. Currently she's got you running around, worried, upset and she's running the show. You have to keep switching the balance and you have to stop feeling guilty for getting sharp. Firm parenting doesn't leave anyone screwed up or on the therapist's couch.

Agree with Cogito

"I'm not asking you, I'm telling you"
"Because I said so"
"That's none of your business"
"Did I ask you?"

and other choice, short, snappy phrases that put her in her place.

Sorry OP, but having read this, and your other thread, she sounds quite indulged. You have got to harden up and remember who the mama is - you!

Cognito what you said about my having a child that would test the Patience of a saint . . . Do you really think that then? Im never sure if the problem is my lack of patience or if she really is as difficult as i think she is.

Pictish i try very hard not to indulge her. Didn't realise i was. Would you mind telling me which thing are indulging? I think that would help me see it.

Also i do say put her in her place statements but i always feel bad because its sounds like i am belittling her. The parenting books NEVER suggest saying these things and always go on about listening to them and talking to them with someonerespect. I feel so confused and torn in all these directions. The mum the books say to be, the mum i am naturally, the sort of mum that would work best with my child!

I think she sounds very trying, demanding and attention-seeking. Most children attention-seek to some extent but, from what you describe, that's her default setting. I think she quibbles everything and throws strops purely to keep you there, arguing, negotiating and desperately trying to make her happy... Whether that comes from her own insecurity or whether she finds it difficult to share you with the younger child, I can't say. The more you respond and negotiate and argue.... all those dressing up outfits being a classic example... the better from her point of view. If she'd been cooperative and agreed to the first outfit you'd be off doing the next thing in your day and, to her mind, that's not where she wants you.

Attention-seeking behaviour can only be dealt with in a few ways.

1. Deny attention by ignoring the bad behaviour, and only respond when the behaviour is acceptable again. The message is that attention-seeking behaviour does not get your attention. So it becomes pointless.
2. Reinforce good behaviour by giving lots of attention. As I think I said on the other thread, make time to do things together so that the message is 'when you're pleasant and cooperative we have fun and you get mum all to yourself'
3. Cut short attention-seeking behaviour sharply making it clear there's no scope for discussion, negotiation or argument. This is not 'belittling' someone, it's simply being assertive.

Ultimately, you know your child best but, unfortunately, she knows you just as well. She knows that you think you should be talking to her with respect at all times, no matter how badly she behaves, and she's playing you like a fiddle.

You've given me a lot to think about cog. Thank you.

I've learnt alot here too! :) so glad ur feeling a bit better, and some good advice has come along for u!! Good luck xxx

Thank you mjtay

Poor poor poor poor poor PooPoo! You sound like you have had the week from hell! Your daughter sounds extremely hard work and would probably give Supernanny some grey hairs. Can't remember if I told you my 10 yr old DD has been much the same (slowly improving with age but still has her 'moments').

I would recommend you read Cogitos points 1), 2) and 3) and absorb as they sound very good. I think it's definately a case of getting rid of all the choice she has, it's probably overwhelming her and she she can see how hard you are trying. The more this behaviour carries in 'cycles' the more she will see it as the norm, 'right I'm in the bath, time for me to cry again about who gets out first, time for mum to get wound up like she did the other night'... and so it goes on like night follows day. I hope this doesn't sound like I'm critisizing you PooPoo, I'm not, I've been there myself plenty of times (infact as I type DD is stropping about wanting to go to the shop and I said no!).

You can only give it a try, it can't hurt, you are not being cruel to her by removing so much choice and negotiation. Think about the bath situation, simply say, it's time to get out now and bring her out, end of, if she whinges just carry on regardless and try singing or humming a tune. When she sees that it's not getting your attention she will change the record.

And finally, as it's been said before, do reinforce the good behaviour and let her know that that is the behaviour that makes you both happy. Let us know how you get on. GOOD luck!

I am no expert, let me say.
I have twin daughters who did all of this and beyond, so I know exactly how rotten you are feeling.
With hindsight I would say this:
Think about yourself a bit more
Spend HALF as much time on your DD
She'll be better for spending time away from you, with a friend or aunty or granny maybe.
Keep your chin up!

Hello again senses! Yes will try to take it all on board. Its tohard though because my instant reaction when she is behaving badly is to tell off and shout. Ignoring just doesn't come naturally. I have no idea how i am actually going to do it.

The being firmer thing i think i can do.

My dh just took the dcs to the shop and they were all talking in the car about playing lego when they got home. It was decided that they would play in the front room so that all could play. So they get in and dh said he would go get the lego and off she sets . . . I want to play it upstairs! Dh said that they were playing downstairs as discussed in the car so they could all play it. . . But i want to play upstairs! Im cold I'll be warmer up stairs! Dh said no . . . But but but but. . . Dh shouted so loudly about how she must NOT argue with him! He's at work during the week but its even managing to get to him!

We are both out of patience.

Rezolution. The time apart would be good sometimes but don't have relations or anyone to help so i don't usually get any breathing space. My husband took them shopping today but thats rare.

Sorry about the Lego episode! Maybe try to get some help from one of the other Mums? Would anyone have her for an overnight stay? She will probably be a little angel for them.

Rez what would you have done about the lego?

I do regular playdates with some other mums. Perhaps i should suggest a swap. . . I have theirs for a few hours and they return the favour.

Generally what would people have done about the lego? I am too close to it and too exhausted by it to think clearly!

I have been through exactly the same stuff with both of mine, esp DD. Thankfully they are now 8 and 7 and are growing out of it.

I think it comes down to a combination of having strong opinions (perfectionism), a desire for control and a lack of appreciation of what is realistic. DD especially has strong ideas of how things should be (eg costume days at school, she has a mental image of how she should look but lacks the maturity to realise that I can't just make it happen, same thing with birthday parties, Christmas Day etc). She also can't wait for things, or thinks I will forget if she doesn't constantly repeat her request until it is granted. For the past 3 years she has walked home from school saying 'can I have a snack, a drink and go on the computer when we get home?' over and over despite me saying 'yes' or 'don't ask me again' etc it drives my friend mad!

As the kids become more independent, these behaviours seem to ease off. Now that they can get their own drinks and snacks they hardly pester for food (fruit and plain biscuits are unlimited, other stuff is hidden). I take DD with me when I buy her clothes etc and don't buy anything that she doesn't like, she also chooses her own clothes each day (and now fusses less about clothes).

Try to give her as much independence where you can and grin and bare it for another year or so. Good Luck!

What I would've done about the lego would be to say "No. You play with the lego downstairs as agreed, or you don't play at all"
Any further arguing would result in a warning that to continue would mean six minutes in time out. Then after that, it would be six minutes in time out.
Rinse and repeat as neccessary.

There's no need to shout or argue with her - she's a kid, and she'll do as she's told. This is not 'belittling' her. It is setting boundaries and being the adult.

The lego thing:

My 2 generally behave badly when I try to do something with both of them together (again, this is getting easier). Its generally easier to do things like lego one at a time. So for dh to do lego with dd1 while you had dd2 for instance. If thats not appropriate dh could say to both girls 'I am going to do lego downstairs you can join me or go and do something else'.

Mine both love lego so nothing would compare to it, so it would be almost cruel to do it with one but not the other.

Poo I have an almost 5yo girl and a 3yo boy. DD has very similar tendencies to what you have described.

I think you are trying too hard to be her friend. You are not there to be liked all the time, you are teaching how the world works, what the rules are, what is acceptable. She will push boundaries and she will learn what she can get away with and what she can't.

Saying no more crisps is a good thing, I have the same rule in my house. It is not up for discussion. I have been known to say 'Well you can cry all day but you are not having chocolate now' and do you know what? They don't cry all day.

DS talked loudly in a queue the other day about 'yesterday when I was crying and you locked me in the hall' He was having a lying-face-down strop because he couldn't have chocolate 20 minutes before his tea and I told him to go away and make that noise somewhere else.

You sound a bit like I have felt at times. But they can't reason properly, and sometimes because I said so is an alright answer. Every night we have the cleaning teeth discussion - it is not negotiable and we joke about not being able to eat sweets any more if their teeth fall out. But if they refuse, tough shit, they are going to clean her teeth and it is my job as their mum to make sure they do.

I am not hard faced at all - no CIO in this house, no naughty step, they are not myy style. But you are not there to be nagged to buggery by a small child.

What's cio?

Crying it out/controlled crying