Still feel like I am going crazy . . .

[PooPooInMyToes]

Continuuing on from this thread...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/parenting/1416699-I-feel-like-I-am-going-crazy?msgid=30335363

The behaviour this week has just been awful! A couple of days ago they had dressing up at school for Book Week. We didn't realise until the day before so that night we got out all the fancy dress, wittled it down to what could be said to be a book character, took out all the stuff that was too small etc and ended up with 2 different outfits plus a few generic princesses which she could get away with.

None were good enough. We acted really enthisiatic about 1 and thought maybe the enthusiatism would rub off, it didn't. Tried another one, same happened. In the end just said she had to chose one. By the next morning she still hadn't chosen and just sat in her room with a sulky face repeating that she wanted to be certain costume which we didn't have, isn't a book character and couldn't make out of what she has. In the end she was told that if she wasn't dressed by when we had to leave I would take her down the road to school naked.

Eventually she did get dressed but I had to enlist my DHs help and he really needed to get to work. I felt that I was just going to flip at her.

She had decided what she wanted and nothing else was good enough, even though what she wanted wasn't an option.

Today after school we watched some short stories on DVD. She wanted to chose every story we saw and when I let DD2 chose one she burst into tears and said that she had already chosen which wasn't true. Then she wanted me to fastforward through the bits she didn't like. I explained that her little sister wanted to see those bits even if she didn't. She didn't care. Just wanted what she wanted. She didn't get her own way.

Then it was bath time but she wanted to watch one more story even though the one before wasn't finished, she whined so I just turned it off. In the bath she was fine apart until it was time to get out. We have had such a fuss in the past about who gets out first (DD1 always used to winge and cry "but I always get out first!" which wasn't true) so we got a coin with a dolphin on one side and a flower on the other and we toss the coin to decide who gets out. Today they both wanted to be the same pic but eventually she said she would be the other. Tossed the coin and she lost and had to get out. Lost in her eyes that is, the other one gets out 2 secs later so it's hardly a big deal! So then she burst into tears about how she's always the dolphin or something. FFS!

I suggested that we get a coin to toss to decide who gets to be each side of the dolphin coin to decide who gets out of the bath first! Of course the sarcasm was lost on her.

Then going to bed she asked me if I would give her an extra cuddle in her bed. I told her I would but first I had to sort out DD2 who was sitting on the toilet covered in poo. She was in bed so I told her to stay there and I would be back in a few minutes and shut the door.

I went to see DD2 and needed a wet wipe so popped down stairs. The minute I was at the bottom of the stairs I could hear her out in the hall way shouting "where are you going?" "what are you doing?" "why did you shut my door?"

I came back up and told her firmly to get back into bed. She just kept saying the same things over and over. I explained again about the poo and the wet wipe and she just kept going on about the door being shut. I told her not to come out of her room again.

With her back in her room I went into the bathroom where DD2 was waiting and she came straight back out of her room again saying "why did you shut the door again?"

I lost the fecking plot! I shouted (can't even remember most of what I said) and told her it's none of her business if I close a door or not and that I don't need to explain everything to her. That she doesn't need to question every single thing I do. That I told her to get in bed and how dare she not do what she is told. She burst into tears again.

I put DD2 to bed all rushed (felt sorry for her) and went into DD1 room. I am so upset and disgusted with myself that I went loony at her. I was screaming and shouting that I am sick of her behaviour and that it's been disgusting all week and all she ever thinks about is her, it's all me me me, moan moan moan, whinge whinge whinge. I went on and on and on.

After I had calmed down we had a chat and a cuddle and I tried to explain how some of her behaviours are really not acceptable.

I am so fed up. All week (she does it a hell of a lot anyway but this week has been really bad) she has just been bursting into tears about everything, whining about everything. Complaining, demanding and generally being a nightmare.

I am sitting here crying because I don't know what to do.

She just keeps bursting into tears about everything. I just keep losing the plot and swearing at her.

Anyone help?

Awww, PooPoo, my little swampduck, glad to be back but not glad to see you having such a rough time.

I think part of the problem is that you are not having a break from each other, she would appreciate you much more after some time away, do any of the other mums know what a rough time you are having? The swap idea sounds fantastic if you could work that out.

That aside, not sure what I would have done about the lego, your daughter sounds like she would argue over fresh air, as mine does (and does with her brother so that they drive me to insanity). Is she familiar with the word 'compromise', perhaps she has to learn what it means and that actually, the world does not evolve around what she wants to the exclusion of others. This will come as she gets older, it's natural that young children don't consider others that much, they have to learn how to take care of themselve first if you like.

By the way, that sounds like a good film title 'Extremely Close and Incredibly Exhausted' (there's one that's out now called 'Extremely Close and Incredibly Loud' if you're wondering what on earth I'm talking about! Perhaps it could be used for a film about the joys of parenting!!

Seriously, work on the getting a break thing but it WILL GET BETTER. Wish I could babysit for you myself.

My little swampduck made me

PooPoo I've just read your threads and can identify so much with the way your DD acts and the way you react. I have a 5 year old DS who acts much the same way as your DD.

I'm trying to change my parenting style from 'explaining' to just telling him what to do. I have a tendency to shout when he doesn't listen and have no idea how to actually ignore him - what happens when they start going on and on and on and on?

I have a DD who is 2 - she is a delight and an absolute angel compared to DS. Actually, I have just a slightly larger age gap between my two than you do... perhaps there's something in that!

I'd be interested to see how you get on. I could do with some support myself too

Hi Charlie, I've no idea how to actually ignore it. If they say it once twice or three times then its easy . . . If they say it non stop for an hour?

My younger one is easier too!

Sorry you are having a difficult time too.

If they say it non-stop for an hour you use a stern phrase that cuts them off short e.g. 'I'm not arguing/discussing' and, if that doesn't work, you remove them to another room. Then they can create a noise, whine, cry or whatever to their heart's content and you do nothing except wait until the noise has died down until you allow them to join you again. If I remember rightly your DD is 6yo? Does she bug her class teacher for an hour if they say 'no' to her?

Corgito - good point. Her nagging/wheedling/arguing tactics won't work at school....so she won't even attempt it. She knows she has to fall in with the school routine and respect her teacher's authority, so she will just get on with doing that. It is no different within the family home.

I am aware I come across as a stern mother on this thread, but I'm not. I'm really not. If anything, I'm pretty liberal.

However, I will not waste my time being given the runaround by demanding kids. I'm in charge here, and I decide what goes. The fact that the OP is asking "What would you have done about the lego?" tells me that her daughter has way too much say, and is quite used to getting her own way by persistence.
I am far more persistent than my kids. I have to be - I'm an adult, and dh and I are the ones who make the decisions round here.

This OP wants to be kind and giving to her daughter, and not be a mean mummy, as she is afraid of belittling and disrespecting her. I get that. I understand.
The problem here though, is that the child is belittling and disrespecting her mother, and other members of the family, in order to demand that her agenda is prioritised, and she does this because she is indulged in it. It gets good results, so why not?

She behaves this way because it works.

OP - strap on a pair and stand up to your daughter and put her in her rightful place as the child here. You do not need to be angry or shouty or mean to her....you just need to decide what does and doesn't go, and stick to it with calm authority. Putting her in time out, or removing her from the room, when she starts her nonsense, will NOT scar her emotionally for life, but it might just instill a bit of well needed respect on her behalf, and save your sanity.

If you do not take measures to get the upper hand, there will be more and more incidences of you losing the plot and overreacting, just as you describe in your OP. The older she gets, the harder she will become to contain. Get a handle on it now, and save yourselves a lot of bother.

Glad to be back PooPoo but not glad to see you having such a rough time of it. It does sound like you could do with a break, only getting one when DH takes them to the shop is not enough! Try and speak to the other mums and see if you can work something out. Although we have some family nearby they very rarely help out with babysitting so we get very few breaks and it is hard I know.

Also, I know it's hard to ignore, gosh I am good at giving this advice out but I know full well that I struggle to follow it! I'm just saying once you've laid down the law and she starts to scream etc, try your best not to give any further attention.

She obviously wants attention, control and independence - perhaps think of other ways to provide these when you are not in the midst of a 'situation'.

If all else fails, we can go crazy together..............

I'm not a parrot honest, just don't know what happens to my messages, sometimes they don't seem to appear so I have another go, ho hum......

Well we had a much better day today! Me and dd1 had to go out alone this afternoon to a party. Afterwards i needed to get her new shoes so we went shopping. It wasn't particularly special time doing anything great but it was just as nice as it was ordinary stuff but with just the two of us.

For some reason i remained calm and in control and when she was difficult i was firm. For eg she kept asking me to carry her party bag for her and i said no a couple of times. She got a bit moany about it and asked again. I said calmly and firmly that if i carried it for her she would never get it back. She carried it. Felt a bit cruel but she didn't ask again. Not sure it was the perfect way to deal with it but it worked.

She was acting a bit odd in the shop. Kept taking off the shoes after the woman had put them on her and kept jumping about and was all excitable. It was strange! My husband said that maybe she was just happy that the two of us were alone, Im not sure. At the time it seemed hyper and slightly bonkers.

Yes she does do what she is told at school although they are having trouble with her not listening, not doing the work if it doesn't interest her and being in a little world of her own.

Anyway today was better and will have to try to keep it up. Thanks for all the advice!

I'm so glad to hear you had a good day.

I have been practising zen-like calm whenever my DS acts up and it seems to be working... for the moment anyway!

Charlie, if only i could always be like that!

It does sound like you're having a tough time. Fwiw, these are the things I would do (and have done) in your situation:

Bath time - make alternate nights 'their' night to get out first. So one night it is DD1's turn, the next night is DD2's turn. I would say this is fairer, and more black and White (and therefore harder to argue about :)) than chancing their luck on the flip of a coin. When DD1 argues on her night you can say 'but last night you got to stay in longer and DD2 got out first so tonight it's your turn to get out first. Tomorrow will be your turn to stay in' etc.

Legogate - It's play downstairs or not at all. Quick explanation/reminder of why it's to be downstairs and then that's it. No more discussion. Don't like, don't play.

Constant whinging - tell her to stop. If she continues then tell her if she carries on then she will go to her room so you don't have to listen to it. Follow through with your threat if she continues.

I'm not a perfect parent, far from it, but I don't tolerate whinginess. If my DCs feel something is unfair etc then I'll always hear them out but at the end of the day what I say goes. A much used phrase in our house is 'get over it'. And they very quickly do because they know there's no backing down on my part (or DH's for that matter).

From reading your posts I do wonder if things need to be simplified more for your DD. Maybe only ever offer 2 choices of things (such as the fancy dress) and it's ok for one of those choices to be 'go without'! Eg, when she wouldn't stay in her room I'd have told her to get in bed or no cuddle. End of.)

Don't try to reason with her every time. Obviously she deserves to be listened to but sometimes 'no' is enough of an answer. If she knows you aren't prepared to enter into discussion about something (particularly something utterly pointless) then she may well give up sooner as she won't be getting the attention she is craving.

"Not sure it was the perfect way to deal with it but it worked"

You did exactly the right thing by closing down the choices to either 'doing as you're told' (carry the bag) and 'unpleasant consequence' (bag removed permanently). It's not even close to being cruel. The only thing that got knocked was her belief that you'll always cave if she keeps going long enough. Since your original problem is that she always wants her own way, you've made progress.

In the rest of your life, how do you deal with awkward or annoying people? Do you stay calm and negotiate, lose your temper and swear, do as they say to keep the peace, stand up to them assertively... ?

Grape . . . Thanks on your reply. We do the alternate night thing about a couple of things such as who gets to chose the story but she will always say that dd2 chose list night and go on and on and not take our word for it.

If there is something she can argue about she will so the coin was to eradicate that. She can argue for England!

It did work well for a while because it was fun and a game. Perhaps i will write the first letter of their name on each side so that they can't argue about that!

As for the clothes . . . I realise that she like to control things so i try to give her control over things which don't try matter too much. Usually it is fine! This is the first time I've ever had her refuse to put on anything! Oh no actually its the second! The first one was when i had an ambulance on the way and she refused to get dressed because she couldn't find anything yellow to wear!

You're very right about just not entering the argument.

Cog i have a friend who does UP so she always says that threatening consequences or to take things away is a harsh thing to do. There is so much conflicting advice. Much of it i find just doesn't work for my child. The friend always says oh just explain it to her . . . Like that is enough for my daughter! She has a daughter who unquestioningly does as she's told.

I was brought up to keep the peace big time! I've had counselling to try to be more assertive and i think of myself as an assertive person, although i have trouble with the in laws as they are very argumentative people and rip me to pieces if i disagree with them. Husband has the same problem with them. Think our daughter may have inherited some personality traits.

What confuses it more is that i wasn't really listened to as a child for various reasons i won't bore you with and so i always promised myself i would listen to my children, so that's what I've been trying to do.

I really do think that the parent we become is a direct result of our own childhoods. Whether that is us doing things the same way as our parents as we know no different or us trying too hard to be different. I seem to have got a bit stuck between the two.

Thanks for that Polly, will look.

PooPoo ParentingPower has triumphed! Well done on your shopping trip Poops, it just shows you what that firmess and not entering into an argument can do. I know you feel mean if you are not used to it, I still struggle with it but it is worth it when you see you are getting better behaviour in return.

I had to smile about the school's description of your daughter, they are EXACTLY the same 3 things they say about mine, along with chats and distracts others too much.

I repeat, well done.

That's funny. They say mine sings to herself a lot! Like a little crazy person!

"threatening consequences or to take things away is a harsh thing to do"

It all depends on the child. My own DS can be quelled with a fierce look or a stern tone of voice - he's putty, basically. Yours is different but, believe it or not, will be far happier with boundaries and consequences. Without them she's having to navigate life on her own terms, she's not mature enough to do that and she therefore feels insecure. (Back to keeping you close by whining) So the 'I'm taking the bag away if you ask me again' conversation worked because you created a line in the sand and she could make a simple decision to cross it or not.

I know what you mean about not being listened to as a child. 'Seen and not heard' was a popular parenting style 30, 40, 50 years ago and it has plenty of faults because children grow up feeling their views are unimportant. But the converse.... always listened to and never instructed, is too big a responsibility for them.

Once again I completely agree with what Corgito wrote.
Those are my thoughts entirely.

PooPoo I read your OP and my first thought straight away was 'that child is given too many choices'. I have a very spirited 4-year-old DS1 and a 2-year-old DS2 who likes to copy his brother and there are days where I think 'right, where do I hand in my resignation letter as their mother?!!!'

"Mine both love lego so nothing would compare to it, so it would be almost cruel to do it with one but not the other."

That statement says it more to me, as a parent, I think sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind. There are life lessons they have to learn and it's better you teach them those lessons but reinforced with love than for them to learn the hard way in the future. If that was our incident, DS1 would have ended up not playing while I play with DS2. It's that simple. You are the parent here. As for 'choosing' TV programmes, they get to alternate their programmes - DS1 will watch an episode of Octonauts and DS2 will get an episode of Peppa Pig. If they fight, they get a warning or the TV goes off and stays off. If you do it, trust me, they will think twice about doing it next time.

With kids like your DD and my DS1, I find that you really have to be firm with them. When you say no, mean it or you will pay the price for it. We've always done timeout/naughty step with DS1 and it's always worked but lately, he's taken to doing some awful screams or trying to do something while on it and I tell him 'fine, you make the noise, kick whatever, it will be another 4 minutes before you come off the step'. And I have to do it cos if I let him get away with it once, oh boy, I will pay the price for it.

It doesn't mean it's not trying though when you have to deal with this ever so often in a day. I go to bed every night resolving to be a better mother next day. :)

. . . will be far happier with boundaries and consequences. Without them she's having to navigate life on her own terms, she's not mature enough to do that and she therefore feels insecure. (Back to keeping you close by whining)

I think you are probably so right. I've been thinking a lot about all this the last few days and have been discussing it all with my DH. I have been trying to get him to stop engaging her in argument. When they are arguing he can't see that he is arguing with a young child (and whats the point in that!) and that there are other ways. Firmer ways without being harsh but which stop it in it's tracks. To argue with someone so young is ridiculous but it's easy to see that from the outside, not so much when you are involved in it.

I have also been noticing more the things she does to try to be the baby of the family (saying she wants to be 3 and crying about not wanting to be a big girl, asking me to take the buggy to school to pick her up etc) and I'm wondering if this is her insecurity too. I have thought now and then over the years that she might be insecure so it's interesting that you have picked up on it too.

There are very good reasons for her to be insecure, the main one being that someone close to me died just after her birth and I didn't cope at all well. I was a horrible mum for her and there is absolutely no way that the environment she was in wasn't affecting her. I tried my best but sometimes life doesn't go how you expect it. I never imagine that a child of mine would have that start to life, I imagined them coming into a happy environment with a happy calm mum and instead she got a grieving, angry, bitter, not able to cope and mentally ill mum.

I go to bed every night resolving to be a better mother next day.

Me too!

PooPoo The important thing is to realise you are trying, a lot of people don't. You are looking at where you are failing as a mother and trying to improve, the fact that you are self-aware and is asking for help to identify problems and solutions mean things will improve as you slowly try and turn things round.

I was so upset by something DS1 did the other day (which was partially our fault) - we had left him on the iPad as we had friends round, help him downloaded a free game but he downloaded £70 worth of in-app stuff without us realising! I just lost it that night with DH (not at him!) and cried and cried because I felt like I am such a bad mother. DS1 didn't mean what he did, it was our fault for not supervising him better but I still felt angry with him and took the iPad off him.

But you know what? I felt much better after venting and talking to DH. We had a really nice day the next day (not completely un-eventful shall we say? But better than most days!) cos I became more self-aware and tried harder not to engage in a battle of wills with DS1. Whatever he wanted to do, I tried to let him do and let go until he pushed his boundaries too much, then I had to stern with him but without shouting or yelling. But gosh, was I knackered that night! There is no point arguing with a child, they don't do reason very well, not at this age anyway. Don't worry, we will get there one day! :)