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Unconditional Parents ....

66 replies

nappyaddict · 17/02/2012 23:07

I have a few questions for you :)

How do you feel about reward systems, sticker charts, housepoints etc in nurseries and schools?

A lot of people who do UP have told me UP musn't be confused with lack of discipline. Can you give me examples of times you have disciplined your child? I'm finding it hard to get DP on board because he can't see how we are supposed to actually discipline.

OP posts:
Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
Hattie11 · 17/02/2012 23:09

What on earth is unconditional parents?

I'm a parent unconditionally but still create boundaries for my children to help them learn appropriate behaviour!

nappyaddict · 17/02/2012 23:12

Oh and would you use reward systems for any of these - potty training, trying new foods with overly fussy eaters, learning to dress themselves, for children with bathing/hair washing/teeth brushing/hair brushing/hand washing/sun cream/hat wearing issues?

OP posts:
Beamur · 17/02/2012 23:12

DD's school do points - her winning 'house' had a treat at the end of the term with non-uniform/games etc - which, if it helps motivate the kids is a good thing.
We don't do any charts/stickers etc at home though. We have consistency and expected behaviour, and I've never really had to punish or discipline DD either. A firm word, raised finger or steely glare is enough. We've two older kids too (my DSC's) and discipline/punishment has never been an issue there either. They know what is expected of them and generally do it. DD is nearly 5, the older ones are teens.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

Beamur · 17/02/2012 23:13

Seeing your last post - I did offer a reward for potty training, but not for anything else.

I'm not sure I know what Unconditional Parenting is though..

BertieBotts · 17/02/2012 23:54

Hello, I am not strictly UP, but I do like the principles of it and try to follow them where possible.

Firstly for the discipline question - which is a big one. You have to get your head around discipline as a whole different concept from what you probably currently think of it as, which is a behaviourist model, ie discipline is rewarding good behaviour, and/or punishing bad, and discipline methods range from the overly positive (praise/reward anything good, ignore the bad) to the strictly punitive (expect perfection and punish/discourage anything less) - most parents, obviously, opt for something in the middle, since both of these are extreme and unlikely to work well in all situations.

However the "UP" philosophy takes the verb "discipline" and goes right back to the root of it - "to teach". That means that, effectively, everything you do is discipline. The way you speak is teaching them how to speak - do you model please and thank you, do you try not to shout, do you listen when they ask you things? You can also teach by explanation, reasoning, answering questions, pointing them towards information sources, helping them make the connection between their actions and the natural consequences of those actions (such as not insisting they wear a jumper when it is cold)

It does not mean that you never do anything which could be taken as a punishment - there will be situations when you need to remove them from a situation for their own safety, for example, or that you never do anything which looks like a bribe - this can be a lesson in negotiation in itself. What it means is that you don't use rewards and/or punishments as the motivational tool - you want them to learn that we don't hit people because it hurts people, not that we don't hit because we will get into trouble. And similarly the idea is that if you make good behaviour about getting a sticker, it becomes about the sticker, and not about the behaviour being a good thing to do.

The difference is that if you are imposing on your child, it's not about your child associating the bad behaviour with the bad experience of the punishment/consequence, it's a way for them to either learn something, or make the bad thing right. So if you send a child to their room for some breathing space, but while up there they play with their toys and have a lovely time, that is fine, because the object of putting them in their room was not to create a bad experience for them, but to show them that sometimes it helps to take yourself away from a situation which is escalating. If they make a mess and you get them to help clean up and they have a great time doing it, that's okay as long as the mess gets fully cleaned up - and if it's something tricky like food mess, you can always redirect, too, e.g. let them tip some dried pasta out onto the floor and then practice sweeping it up back into a tin. Let them play with bath crayons and then wipe the tiles clean with a sponge. Let them "help" with some actual cleaning, rather than making a new mess to clean up. It's about getting them to think about the consequences of their actions as a whole rather than just how things will directly affect them.

So when a situation comes up when your child does something which you don't want them to do, the first question you ask yourself is WHY this is unacceptable - is it dangerous, does it hurt someone, is it actually a problem, or do I just think it's a problem because I've always been taught this behaviour is "naughty"? (The behaviour being annoying to you/other people is a valid problem). Then you have to get that WHY over to the child, if they are mature enough to have the understanding. So, for example, if you have a problem with a child not getting ready quickly enough in the mornings but there is no way they will understand "We'll be late" as a good enough reason, then you plan more time into getting ready and perhaps employ distraction techniques. Once they get older, you can bring reasoning into it. DS is 3 now and knows if he is late for nursery, he does not get to choose which letter he sits on on the carpet, because another child might have chosen it first. Which could be perhaps seen as bribery, but what is he learning? If you are late, you miss things. If you are early, you get more choice and more opportunities.

On your other questions, I don't like reward based systems in nurseries and schools. DS's nursery use stickers, but they don't seem to overly rely on them, which I am happy-ish about. I would love to find a school which successfully used UP type methods but I think it is unlikely, mainly because the behaviourist thing is so ingrained, but also because class sizes are large and it's a necessary short cut for the teachers. They just do not have the time to be explaining and thinking about messages and lessons in a way that 30 different children will understand. But I think that a parent, generally, does have that kind of time to spend with their child, even if you work outside the home (I do.)

I did use bribery for potty training, because DS was over 3 and we were desperate, I knew he could do it, but he just didn't want to. Actually though, it didn't work that well, because he was scared of the potty and even an entire twix (I know Blush) wasn't enough to override that. Eventually the thing which got him to do it was putting cheerios in the toilet, and making it into a game, and then pretending we needed a wee and "Oh no, I hope nobody gets there first!" - so the bribery didn't actually work at all, but it was annoying as he then expected treats every time!

New foods - no, but we did use bribery/witholding snacks/puddings for a bit when DS was eating only a bite of dinner and then waking up hungry in the night, and not making the connection himself. And occasionally still do now if I feel he has not made a good enough attempt at dinner and then demanding fruit or whatever. I never bribed him to try new foods, though, he just tried them when he wanted them. (Funnily, the food bribery and the potty training bribery has been mainly since DP moved in as they are not things I would have thought of)

Learning to dress self - no, I don't think this would be important enough as an issue. They will not be asking for help when they are 18 :)

Bathing - again no need - have unceremoniously plonked screaming refusing child in bath before and within seconds he was happily playing - if there is a genuine fear, though, you work through it with them (and this did happen when I left XP as DS always used to bath with me)

Hair washing - not important enough to me. Try various tactics including magic bucket, making into a game, encouraging him to try himself as much as possible. TBH I just keep DS's hair short and it doesn't look too bad. Children's hair doesn't get greasy.

Hand washing - would first try making into a game, but also just wipe them when necessary and ignore the screaming, only takes a second!

Sun cream/hat - again, try the modelling, letting him get involved, making into a game tactics first, and then impose a safety rule that you are not allowed out without this on. Same with car seats. Actually DS thinks that the car won't start unless everyone is plugged in. If we are really in a rush and the games are not working, then it is force, because it's a safety issue, but it's a last resort.

BertieBotts · 17/02/2012 23:56

imposing a consequence

sorry

BertieBotts · 17/02/2012 23:57

bath with him

perceptionreality · 18/02/2012 00:03

Unconditional parenting, for me is about loving and supporting your child no matter what - I don't think it means no boundaries.

It's about nurturing your child as a person and accepting who they are and being their parent without conditions.

My parents had (and still have) no idea what unconditional parenting is. If they do something for me they then say 'you have to do what we say because we did x for you'. There is also an expectation from them that I 'owe' them something for being my parents. Luckily I don't feel that way about my children.

BertieBotts · 18/02/2012 00:10

That's a good way of looking at it, perception. I think it's also about learning not to take your child's behaviour personally. I get the feeling that, sometimes, punishment is less about getting a child to think about their behaviour, and more as "payback" for whatever it is which they have done wrong. Which seems wrong, to me.

I have focused a lot more on the behaviourist vs gentle/"holistic" discipline factors in my post but of course it is about more than that.

differentnameforthis · 18/02/2012 00:31

Oh and would you use reward systems for any of these -

Yes - potty training
Yes - trying new foods with overly fussy eaters
No - learning to dress themselves
No - for children with bathing
No - hair washing
Not initially - teeth brushing
No - hair brushing
Yes, possibly in line with toilet training - hand washing
No - sun cream
No - hat wearing issues?

Hattie11 · 18/02/2012 00:32

Thanks for that BertieBotts thats really good reading.

My motto has always been ignore the bad / praise the good. Only approach if they may come to harm etc. I agree perception there are boundaries involved in any type of parenting. This is a question i raised on my other thread, how can you prevent harm without boundaries.

I just dislike the title of this method sounds very pretentious when i'm sure the majority of us parent this way without ever having heard of the so-called method.

BertieBotts · 18/02/2012 00:42

It probably does sound pretentious, but it's just a book title, which has been adopted as a shorthand on the web, rather than trying to have a discussion and explaining in a lengthy way "Well we don't tell him to do things Just Because, we don't have the attitude of I am the Adult, You are the Child, we let him come to his own decisions" (etc etc).

It's also become a shorthand for the gentle/holistic discipline method/understanding, TBH, I don't think this is actually the "unconditional" part. Although I really resonate with the concept, I've never read the entire book. I found Kohn a bit earnest. (I should really finish it one of these days...) Although I understand that he suggests parents avoid praise, specifically empty praise, as for the child, the praised act then becomes about receiving validation rather than about doing well for themselves. So he says, you can (and should) be descriptive, but not ascribe a value to things. So if your child builds a tower, instead of saying "Well done! Clever boy/girl!" you say "You built a tower! You built it five bricks high!" and then you can be led by their reaction, if they say "I made it tall!" then you can reflect back to them "Yes, it's very tall, isn't it!" - you're still recognising their achievement, but instead of saying "Yes, this is good" you are saying "I recognise what you did, here" - and they ascribe their own value, it's tall, it's not tall enough, it's good, I can do better than this, etc. Of course if they ask your opinion, then that is different.

I find it's become automatic now - if DS has done something which pleases me, helping tidy up or whatever, I tend to thank him rather than saying "good boy" and on the occasions I do hear myself saying it it seems odd, as though I'm talking to a dog or something.

nappyaddict · 18/02/2012 00:44

Unconditional parenting concentrates a lot on not over reinforcing whether it be positive or negative. I actually think the majority of people don't parent this way. The majority of parents I know rely on using a lot of reinforcement.

OP posts:
BertieBotts · 18/02/2012 00:46

Perhaps with a slightly different emphasis too - I added the exclamation marks in the "you built a tower" part because they looked dead and lacking any kind of emphasis at all without them, but it is different. You wouldn't say "You built a tower!" in the same way as you would say "Clever boy!", it's all about their own reaction. So "You built a tower" could be interested, or instructional (pointing out what they've done, e.g. to a preverbal child) or if they are beaming at you looking extremely proud of yourself, then you might adopt the natural excited/proud tone "You built a tower! You did it all by yourself!" The thing you wouldn't do is say it in a bored monotone.

BertieBotts · 18/02/2012 00:50

Yes I think it is definitely a big part of it, and one of the hardest to get your head around especially if you really do subscribe to the behaviourist school of thought. Personally I don't, because I think that human thought patterns in general are a lot more complex than "What's in this for me?"

I think that most parents probably do use a lot of unconditional/non-behaviourist techniques without really thinking about it alongside the other things. So UP for me is about saying, well, why do we need this behaviourist thinking, anyway? It seems to me like behaviourism treats the symptom, and UP goes to the cause.

BertieBotts · 18/02/2012 00:56

I mean, I do actually think that, contrary to what most UP-ers tend to think Wink most "mainstream" parents tend to punish/reward the surface behaviours, but also attempt to tackle the underlying attitudes or issues which are causing the behaviour. The punishment or reward is just a stopgap, and a reinforcement. It is a minority of parents who will literally just punish/reward and not attempt to address why their child is behaving in a certain way or attempt to make them change their thinking patterns/think about why something is wrong.

So where UP differs is that it says, well, all this addressing the surface issues in the short term is clouding the real issue underneath, and it's causing resentment between parents and children, and it's making the underlying cause harder to deal with, not easier. And tends to accept that the "UP solution" might not be an immediate one and you may continue to encounter problem behaviour in the short term, but in the long run if you can address that underlying cause life will be easier for everyone.

If that makes any sense at all. I should go to bed.

Hattie11 · 18/02/2012 01:01

lol it does. I only flinched slightly at "mainstream" parents and appreciated the wink.

I've said on other thread, i don't have issues with the approach - in fact i use them - i trained as nursery nurse many moons ago and whilst i can't remember whose theories what - the approaches i liked are still with me as a parent. it was only when someone mentioned no boundaries i was baffled, but i think that was someones misinterpretation. I just can't be dealing with hearing the title if we could just stick to UP for now that would be fine!

Good night!

Cabrinha · 18/02/2012 01:04

Ended up here from the AIBU thread. Just wanted to say, BertieBotts your practical examples are great, I'm another loose follower who finds the book quite earnest and hasn't quite finished yet! And I think you examples are really clear.

To the OP, my 3yo's nursery give stickers sometimes. I wish they wouldn't, but I accept they're managing behaviour in a totally different environment. But mainly, for me the critical thing is that the PARENT (the main and most important) source of love for a child should show they love unconditionally. I don't think it matters the same way at nursery.

I don't think there's a problem with rewards - it's just when I see kids whose whole life seems to run on a sticker system that there's potentially a problem!

I asked my 3yo to stop BFing through the night last night. I explained it makes me tired, and I'd like to have the energy to go to the park. We got through the night, I thanked her, I made good on the park trip, I told her I loved the cuddles we had (when she woke up anyway). But on top of that... I got her the Thomas magazine I'd promised as a bribe! You have to mix it up, I think!

My rule of thumb is if it's day to day behaviour (tidying up, eating) then no stickers /bribes. If it's one offs - nightweaning, potty training - I'll consider it.

BertieBotts · 18/02/2012 01:16

I just say mainstream because it generally feels like everyone uses the naughty step, and sticker charts, it's the "accepted" method, it's on all these TV programmes, supernanny, etc, and to consciously choose to eschew all of that can feel a bit like you are swimming against the tide at times. Sorry if it caused any offence.

I agree I think that when people say UP = no boundaries, they have got it wrong.

I am trying to make a deal with DS at the moment, he feeds to sleep, he is 3.4. But lately his latch has been odd, he sometimes wants to just lie with me but then complains that I push him out of bed, and if neither of these happen I often fall asleep with him and mess up my own sleep patterns, it's a shame because I love that time with him, but it's becoming harder now. So we keep just opening up new ideas/options for him, things like changing the order of milk and stories, perhaps reading stories sitting on a chair next to the bed, etc. Tonight he said that he wanted a drink of milk from the kitchen before bed, and (mainly because I was too lazy to go downstairs Blush) I said that that was okay, but he had to choose one, milk from downstairs and he could have his stories but then he would go to sleep by himself (which I know he can do), or he could have milk from me and I would stay with him. He was a bit upset because he wanted both, but in the end he chose milk from me. I was really tempted to give in but actually I think that the choice is a fair one and when he is ready, he will get there, and now he knows that it is one or the other, he can make that choice, and I'm almost certain that he won't be upset about it another time.

BertieBotts · 18/02/2012 01:20

Blush at my off topic rambling!

I think that is a good rule of thumb. I think I would add to the rule that I would probably use bribes in a situation which is a one off and which needs to change for some reason which is perhaps unnatural but is a lifestyle choice we have made for a reason which has overall benefits. So if he hadn't been starting nursery I could have perhaps been more relaxed on the potty training, but he was.

Hattie11 · 18/02/2012 06:45

I was joking about flinching I promise!

Is ds your only child?

I'm fascinated by the fact that many up parents view bribes as ok in rare occasions over time out? I'm not suggesting you'd sit ds in time out for not using the potty its just that to me a bribe is giving a worse signal than a cooling off moment surely? Would love to know your explanation here.

I try and avoid bribes in my house the only time I use is in a busy public place when I can't persuade dd3 into pram for her own safety i suggest she can have a sweet later. I hate doing it but it stops her rebelling from me and running off into road which is my biggest fear. The potty in my opinion does not warrant bribe because there are no safety issues involved.

But I do deep comfortable giving my older children cooling off times if they have got over excitable and either rude or fighting with siblings. This may involve me holding them and quietly discussing their feelings and behaviour coming to an agreement on what's appropriate.

worldgonecrazy · 18/02/2012 07:05

I think Bertie Botts has explained it well. It's about loving unconditionally. Things like naughty steps can be seen as withdrawal of love and affection, so the child learns that if they misbehave they will not be loved, i.e. the only way to be loved is to conform. Great if you want to create robots, not so great for human beings.

We teach compromise, DD doesn't like to be in her pram, and to be honest, in a crowded city street, I don't blame her for not wanting to be at that level (try it yourself and see how horrible it is). So we have a compromise, she stands up in her pram - she has a harness on so there is no danger of her falling. We also teach that actions have consequences, misuse of a toy/item will result in that toy being removed, one warning only given, and after a handful of times removing the item, we now don't even need to give one warning. Actions = consequences.

I've never quite understood the sticker system. Things like being tidy, brushing teeth, eating dinner are expected as normal behaviour, not something worthy of getting a sticker for. I don't get worked up if she doesn't finish her dinner one day - the next day she may eat two portions to make up for it. Luckily DD's school doesn't use stickers either - it does teach self-responsibility from a very young age.

My DD is too young to do anything over and above that which is expected - maybe when she's older and does something extra like washing the car, or weeding grandparents' garden, etc. she would get a reward/treat, but definitely not for everyday expected behaviour.

Iloveautumn · 18/02/2012 07:14

I have read this thread with interest because I do generally like the idea of UP whenever I hear about it but have never really looked into it or read the book.

I have an issue with the moment about bribes - we have been using bribes with 5yo ds quite a bit recently - one to get him tostop calling out in the night/coming in to bed with us and two to get him to go into school without making a 5 minute fuss. (Having already established that there are no actual problems at school).
They have sort of worked a bit, but the main consequence seems to have been an obsession with money!! (the bribes were money because he was saving up for some lego.)
I say worked a bit = he stopped calling out at night for about a week but now it isn't working anymore, he says he is scared at night, which he obiously is, so the fear is more intense than the desire for money!
AT school it has worked better and \I think has given him a reason to just go in without making a fuss.

So, my basic question is, how would UP deal with these scenarios without bribery?

worldgonecrazy · 18/02/2012 07:43

Iloveautumn at 5 years old, I would probably cuddle him if he really is scared. Or maybe offer a night light and buy him a toy monster to help keep him safe if you aren't happy to cosleep on these occasions. Is he able to understand the basics behind why it's normal to be scared of the dark and why we don't need to be scared now we live in houses?

Iloveautumn · 18/02/2012 07:58

hi worldgonecrazy - yes we have tried those things. I think it is just a (hopefully normal!) phase - he is scared of robbers in the house and he is also scared of us dying... ie, relatively rational fears so it is hard to know how to deal with them.... I have talked it all through with him rationally a number of times.

Basically we have an open bed policy and we always go when called, so we always respond to him, but this has been going on for months now and we hoped bribery would kickstart him into sleeping properly again, but it hasn't worked...

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