Unconditional Parents ....

[nappyaddict]

I have a few questions for you :)

How do you feel about reward systems, sticker charts, housepoints etc in nurseries and schools?

A lot of people who do UP have told me UP musn't be confused with lack of discipline. Can you give me examples of times you have disciplined your child? I'm finding it hard to get DP on board because he can't see how we are supposed to actually discipline.

MavisG, that was a good critique of what I do when DS is playing at the sink and I liked your way of handling it better than mine. :) (I didn't think what I was doing there was particularly UP).

Bertie, I think you're spot on with your assessment of how the book is pitched. In one sense it isn't a parenting manual at all.

Bertie So would AK say these "logical consequences" are still punishments?

I would imagine so, but I haven't got that far in the book yet. My gut feeling is that "logical consequences" are a sort of in-between kind of technique. I'd say that most parents use them in some form or another.

To me I tend to take "UP" as a shorthand, I don't actually stick to UP to the letter as a "method" but I do agree wholeheartedly with the criticisms of an overly behavioural model.

My "rule of thumb" about dealing with unwanted behaviour is that anything which is likely to upset the child needs to have some purpose. It should either make right whatever was made wrong, or help the child to understand why what they did was problematic. Both of these can be done without assigning blame, acknowledging that they meant well or they just didn't know that what they were doing was wrong. E.g. we've been playing hide-and-seek recently a lot with DS because he loves it (and he is so useless at hiding, it's funny). So we were out one day in a really big public place and suddenly he spotted a great hiding place so he ran off and hid in it, from his point of view, he's probably thinking, hehehe, what fun, mum and dad will be so impressed with this hiding place! Whereas we were actually panicking and thinking where the actual fuck has he gone?? DP found him and his immediate reaction was to tell him off and tell him it was very naughty to hide like that. I'm ashamed to say that I stepped in and said, hey, he didn't know it was naughty, give him a break. Of course DP's idea was to frighten/upset him so that his experience of hiding in a large public place was made negative and he wouldn't want to do it again, which is conventional parenting wisdom, but I just felt that there was no way he could have had any concept that what he was doing might have been wrong or why it was different from the hide and seek game we'd been playing in the swimming pool earlier where there were limited hiding places and several adults watching, and so it was totally unfair to berate him for it. Instead I just told him that if he wants to play hide and seek and we're not at somebody's house he needs to ask one of the adults first, and I plan to back this up with reminders every time we are in a public place until I think it has stuck. I think this will work with him because he's not a bolter in general, he's generally distrustful of new people until they've been introduced by someone he does trust, and he (mostly) has road sense.

Also, sometimes, I find that just changing your approach with them can change a lot about their attitude to you. DS has had loads to get used to over the last 2 months, starting nursery (preschool), increasing his time at the childminder to 3-5 days a week, he also goes after this one day a week to my friend's house, and at the weekends there are two separate relatives who have him if I'm working. Overall he can be away from home during the day for 6 days a week :( and understandably although he's excited by all the different people and places and I know they are all people who love him he is struggling a little with it. He gets frustrated easily and if he doesn't like what me or DP say or do he has a tendency to launch himself at us roaring "Naughty, naughty!" and trying to hit us, or in some cases bite us :( Now, actually, what I discovered the other day after generally failing to deal with this constructively at all, is that when he's doing this he's actually in total meltdown, and if I just hold him at arm's length so he can't hurt me and say "Hey, I know you're cross, but you need to calm down, okay? Do you need a hug?" every single time he dissolves in tears, says yes, we have a really big hug, and then we talk about what's wrong, with no hitting and no anger. I think the hitting is his frustration coming out that we're not here for him as much as he'd like and he really needs that reassurance of "Even when I'm really horrible, they still love me." And actually I've noticed too that by doing this and also making a real effort to listen to him, engage positively rather than bouncing my frustration off his, pay attention and try to do more of the things he asks for rather than brushing it off with an "I'll do it later" or "No, I'm too tired" or "Oh, DS!!" etc etc, he has been so much nicer and more thoughtful to be around too. I had been worried that because I'm now spending a lot of time out of the house that the other more behaviourist methods would take over, but actually it seems that UP/not UP has an effect whether you are doing it full time or not.

Sometimes it bothers me if there is a reward for every minor thing it teaches them only do something if something in it for me not for their own intrinsic motivation

Yes, that's one of AK's points, I think, imnotmymum.

nappy, I think he does say that those 'consequences' are generally punishments - if the parent could have avoided the child suffering the consequence then not to avoid it is in fact punishing them. So if you don't take a child's coat along with you when they've refused to wear it (to teach them they'll get cold if they don't wear a coat), they feel unloved because you could have prevented them getting cold. (Or something like that.)

I think something AK doesn't articulate is that 'applying UP' is all about connection - however you live with your kids, things go better when you're getting on well, having a laugh together, aware of what's on each other's minds - when your connection's strong. If you're avoiding reward/praise/punishments/allowing natural consequences, then all you have when you want them to do something is your connection with your child, the fact that they want to go along with you.

I agree, Mavis. That fits with what Bertie said about what helps her DS. I also find that when I take the time to really slow down and listen to DS, he's much more co-operative.

It's a point where I depart from AK though - I think relying on your connection with your child as the only 'lever' to get them to do something can (in the extreme) lead to parents trying to be child-pleasers. I guess that using that connection to help him behave in a certain way would be my first strategy of choice, but not necessarily my only one.

Really getting loads out of this thread, thanks everyone. Slightly in awe of Ms Botts! Doing such a brilliant job of being thoughtful and reflective as a parent - which I am aiming for - but IIRC you became a parent quite young, Bertie? I was such a dickhead when I was younger - I can't imagine being able to parent so thoughtfully when I was in my 20s. Always impressed by 20 somethings who are being together when I have just about got some of my shit together now I am in a state of advanced-30 something...

AngelDog, I think child-pleasing behaviour weakens connection, makes the child feel insecure (Jean Liedloff has written some good articles on this that are googlable - she calls it child centredness). The parent needs a strong sense of their own 'edges', for want of a better word, of self and of how they want to live and navigate the world, and also parents must get their needs met - child-pleasing often compromises this.
My back-up is the power differential I guess: I am bigger, know how to get us around, know the rules of how stuff works, have the money etc. I can insist on my way when I need to - I do, however, always question whether I really need to. (as a consequence my child is somewhat unkempt).

YY I think you are right Angel about the coat thing. You allow them to experience the natural consequence of not wearing the coat but you take it with you so that they can correct the decision, you don't allow them to suffer on just to make a point. I have started asking DS to carry his own coat as well but with mixed results.

I also agree with your other point - I think I remember there is a point early on in the book about a study where one set of kids did well in life but had a crap relationship with their parents, and another did not as well but had a good relationship. I think I'd rather DS had a good life and achieved what he wanted even if that means his life direction carries him away from me, than thinking that his relationship with me is the number one most important thing. I feel that is quite selfish on the parent's part.

This is academic, though, I imagine it must be gut wrenching if your adult child decides they don't want much to do with you!

Sparkly I am so not together it is untrue, but thank you!

Mavis, that makes sense.

Bertie, I think it's really hard to judge what is 'doing well' and what constitutes 'a good relationship with parents'. e.g. we have a good relationship with my PILs now, which we achieved by means of several years of not having a good relationship due to us putting our foot down over various issues.

nappy, I think he does say that those 'consequences' are generally punishments - if the parent could have avoided the child suffering the consequence then not to avoid it is in fact punishing them. So if you don't take a child's coat along with you when they've refused to wear it (to teach them they'll get cold if they don't wear a coat), they feel unloved because you could have prevented them getting cold. (Or something like that.)

Wouldn't that apply to allowing them to go out without a coat when it is cold in the first place?

You take the coat in your (enormous and consequently unstylish) bag, in case they want it later.

Yes but what I'm saying is isn't allowing them to get cold in the first place even if you take their coat with you, still means that they suffer and get cold which is something you could have prevented? What I'm trying to say is even if you take their coat doesn't the above still apply?

They don't suffer if you offer the coat as soon as they appear to be cold. If they don't want it, they aren't feeling cold. Some kids have more fat/just run hotter than adults.

I think you're overthinking it nappyaddict.
They're not going to suffer that much and if you've already explained that its cold, they'll be more comfortable with a coat and they've said no, I don't see what options you have other than carry the coat unless you're going to force them into it!!