Unconditional Parents ....

[nappyaddict]

I have a few questions for you :)

How do you feel about reward systems, sticker charts, housepoints etc in nurseries and schools?

A lot of people who do UP have told me UP musn't be confused with lack of discipline. Can you give me examples of times you have disciplined your child? I'm finding it hard to get DP on board because he can't see how we are supposed to actually discipline.

Iloveautumn I know it's hard. Sometimes I would love to be able to do starfish in the bed by myself, but then I remind myself that the years will fly by and before I know it, she'll be up and grown and out the door, and I will miss these precious cuddles.

yeah, I know - that's what I always tell myself!!!
Thanks anyway!!

I do use a variation on time out too - just not as a punishment. It tends to be in a cooling off scenario as you say and wouldn't be "Right, that's it, you're going into time out now!" or threatened ie "You will get a time out if you carry on" but "Can you calm down by yourself, or do you need to go and sit down somewhere else?" - DS went through a phase of insisting that a drink would calm him down, which it did, so we let him choose this instead, because it's not about them being punished but about them learning to manage their own feelings in a healthy way rather than being destructive with them. The other time I'd use something like that is if he is in bed with us and he is wriggling we tell him he has to stay still or go back to his own bed if he wants to wriggle, or if he's in the living room with us making an annoying noise, we tell him he can go up to his bedroom to make that noise but if he wants to stay down here with us he has to be quiet.

I also wouldn't insist that a time out lasted for a certain period of time - if it breaks the tension cycle, it's worked. Which means that when he was younger, I would stay with him. Now it seems to escalate things, so I don't. I don't insist on an apology afterwards either.

DS is my only child but I know people who use this approach who have two or three children. Of course we're all human, and everyone slips up from time to time, I shouted at DS myself this morning and told him to go away because it was early and I wasn't awake and he kept turning my computer off because I wouldn't let him play a game on it.

Iloveautumn I am not sure about the bed one, I know there is some useful stuff in The No Cry Sleep Solution for Toddlers. (Toddlers just means child older than about 2, so they have enough understanding for the processes which are things like making a book, making a poster, talking together, etc). When DS woke in the night we would just ask him to come in with us rather than calling/crying out but DP works nights so I usually have a lot of space. It does get cramped with the 3 of us.

I have definitely seen the "obsessed with money" effect - I think this is just a side effect of rewards in general, some people may see this as a good thing as it gives that reward even more bargaining power, but if you are of a UP philosophy, perhaps not! It does seem to go away on it's own after a while of not using that particular item as a reward.

I'm not strictly UP but I do follow lots of the principles.

I try to work on cultivating habits. If I ask 2.1 y.o. DS to do something and he doesn't do it, I immediately 'help' him to do it and try not to ask him a second time so that he learns to listen to me the first time.

If he does do as I ask, I say 'thank you for doing as I asked'. If he's cross, I say 'thank you for doing as I asked, especially since you didn't want to do it' and I might give him a kiss.

If he is cross and saying 'no' to something, I try to understand what it is he's cross about. e.g. 'are you saying you don't want your shoes on because you want to wear wellies instead, or because you wanted to stay here and play with your trains?' Then I will either change my mind about what I'm asking (if I can easily) or acknowledge his feelings and reassert what I want him to do, with an explanation. e.g. 'I can see that you'd like to stay and play with your trains. It would be lovely if we could, but if we don't go out to the shops we won't have any clementines to eat. Let's put your shoes on'

We do natural consequences too, e.g. refusal to put a toy down means I take it away and put it down for him. If I do have to do something like that, I explain that I don't like having to 'discipline' him but that I want him to learn x.

We have certain rules e.g. when playing at the sink, if the water goes all over the floor, that's the end of playing at the sink. The consequence isn't a punishment, but an action-consequence link.

I do offer incentives but not bribes. So I wouldn't say 'I'll sing you a song if you lie down for a nappy change' but I would say 'I can see you don't want to lie down for a nappy change. Would it help if I sang you a song?'

Other incentives might be choices. So if DS doesn't want his shoes putting on, I might say 'would you like your right shoe on first or your left one first?' It makes it clear to him that what I said will happen, but still gives him a sense of influence over what is happening to him.

I'm more inclined to take a gentle 'just make him do it' approach to things like seat belts, hand washing, eczema cream / medicine, sunhat wearing etc than to offer rewards. When doing so, I would usually make sure I'm modelling doing it myself, talk about how/why we all have to do it, acknowledge DS's feelings about the matter and give him choices where I can, even if they're just made up ones like 'would you like to hold your tractor or your car while I put your seat belt on'.

On trying new foods, I am 'training' DS to be a less fussy eater by giving him one food he doesn't like as the first bite of dinner every day for 7-10 days. I say something like 'I'd like you to try this please. You don't have to eat it. You can spit it out if you want to, but I'd like you to put it in your mouth and try it please.' I'll then say thank you for trying it. He's been willing to do that much, and has got to the point of asking to have both foods I've tried it with so far. Having the habit of doing it every dinnertime helps, as it's just part of the routine now.

On pottying, I read a book to him on the potty by way of an incentive and on the toilet he only gets to use a piece of loo roll to wipe with if he's tried to do a wee (because he doens't need wiping if he's not done one). So again, incentives rather than rewards. But I'm a SAHM and he's not going to nursery so we're in no rush.

I'm not averse in principle to some more mainstream approaches to discipline/punishment but they would be a last resort. DS is a naturally compliant and sensitive child so I've not had to go down this route (yet!).

hmmm.
I have to say, if you read the book, there can be no such thing as "a loose follower" or being a not "strict" UPer. AK is very emphatic, it's supposed to be all of nothing (like Gina Ford, actually). If you do any conditional parenting, ever, then you are not UP. UP is ruined, I guess, by even the occasional lapse into non-UP. I struggle with the example above "If I sing you a song will you lie still for a nappy change?" is that a reward or not? I think it probably is, although maybe it's a negotiation/consequence. It's getting tied up in knots like that that drives me crazy about UP.

AK is very against natural consequences, too, although I admit it's nuanced when it comes to things like explaining consequences & letting them choose, problem arises whether they can really understand the choices like adults can. Also trying to juggle the needs of different people, putting needs of others before ones self, I think that's hard for most kids and they don't want the burden of it.

I find some of UP ideas useful.

all OR nothing I meant to say. oops.

I agree - AK is very black-and-white.

But I do think UP type parenting is primarily about a mindset. So by 'not strictly UP' I mean 'I'm very influenced by many of his ideas but wouldn't subscribe to them wholesale'. But I'd describe myself as doing things more in a UP way than in a 'mainstream' way.

I'm not sure it's possible to never ever ever do any 'conditional' parenting - after all, it refers to your children feeling that you don't love them conditionally, and I'm sure

I would tend to avoid saying to DS 'if you do x, I'll do y', unless I'm talking about time sequences. But that's probably because I'm more 'mainstream' than AK and I don't wish to negotiate with DS on things I expect him to do.

I think like all 'philosophies', you take what works for you and discard the rest. I don't know anyone who has done 100% Gina Ford, for example. :)

This thread has been really interesting reading. I've not read this book, or even heard of it, but much of what BertieBotts has said rings very true for me, so I suppose I am a UP without having previously known it! I think I've very much taken my lead from DP, who has 2 older children and we've brought all the kids up the same way. There pretty much are no rewards or punishments, but all three kids are extremely well behaved and a pleasure to be around. The only experience I have of trying to 'reward' the older kids failed miserably, and the consequence was no pocket money. So we have never given them pocket money! But they are given money if they need it for something and now they are older they get an allowance from their Mum - interestingly, their allowance from Mum is linked to chores (which are done grudgingly) yet they will help out at our house without complaint.
I can honestly say in the nearly 10 years I've been with DP I have only heard him raise his voice on a tiny handful of occasions with the children. I'm not a shouty Mum either.

I don't find reward systems and punishment systems in school to be a problem. Occasionally when we are 'problem solving', one of the DCs have suggested rewards because they are used to these at school but I have explained why that doesn't work for me and so far we've come up with other approaches to the problem. I try to make them aware of the difference in a home situation compared to a class room so that they maintain respect the school system.

We give pocket money unconditionally, the same amount every week. DS is saving for something and has asked to jobs for extra money. I'm happy with this in principle but it's proving challenging finding jobs he can manage that I wouldn't expect him to be doing as general contribution to family life anyway in a few years time!

Could you explain to me how I can enforce boundaries without reward/punishments (or anything in between!), in this example for instance... My DS 5yo calls anyone a bloody idiot when he is upset for some reason, it just comes out, seems like he cant help it. What would you do for that behaviour?

And what do you do when your child just refuses to do as you ask??

I don't think that singing a song is a reward, because it's not conditional on them behaving. You're not saying "If you lie still, I'll sing you a song, but if you are wriggling then I will not sing it. [now or next time or whatever]" - the song is more of a distraction technique.

I do negotiation ie if DS asks me to help him build a train track and I say, okay, but it's really messy in here and there's not much room. Do you think we could tidy up together and then I'll help you build your track? If he is not helping to tidy up, then I say something like "Look, you're not helping, and I don't want to do this all on my own because that isn't fair." and then depending on how cross/patient I am feeling, I might try to make it into a game or race e.g. see if you can tidy up all of the crayons before I tidy up all of the duplo, or I will separate it into jobs, do my half, and then leave him to do his half in his own time (this doesn't work very well, I think he is too little) or if I'm really fed up I just go and do something else and we come back to it when he's feeling more co-operative. The second two options he gets cross about, but the boundary is there - I'm not going to sit and do everything for him if he's not even going to try to help.

OhWhat - if your DS can't help his outburst, would punishing/rewarding help anyway? I would be inclined to hope he grows out of it, but let him know that it is very rude and that he should try not to say it if possible because it might upset people and he might get into trouble, and if he does say it by accident that it would be nice to apologise to the person when he had calmed down. Perhaps try to think of something else he could say instead? "You are making me cross!" might be a good one.

As for the second question, do you believe children should blindly do as you ask?

In response to your PM to a previous persona, I don't recall ever deliberately doing UP. Certainly that approach has slipped alot in recent years. However I don't think that is an improvement, especially since I have recently discovered that much of DS's appalling behaviour may be down to a food intolerance - cue much guilt. So I may well be returning to the philosophy which I think, deep down, is my natural parenting style when tiredness and lack of patience doesn't get in the way.

The things you list in your OP I would never see as a discipline thing anyway, merely as skills to be taught with as much support and encouragement as necessary. Reward charts don't really work for DS so we haven't bothered, but I would never do anything except encourage, encourage, encourage.

We now have DD who is exceptionally strong minded and tbh I can only see a UP approach working for her. She would simply dig her heels in with any other parenting style - so does DS if I'm honest, hence the frequent arguments that take place in this house. Maybe your PM and this thread may be the impetus for a change in thinking.

Yes, Bertie - I think that when I sing the song isn't a reward because it's not conditional on DS behaving. But that's different from saying 'if you lie still, then I'll give you a chocolate' (and if you don't lie still you won't get one), which would be a reward.

Actually, I think I probably do negotiation of the sort you describe.

I'd agree with Bertie on the swearing thing. I think the most important things are to model how he should respond to people when he's cross, and help him apologise when he's not responded to them in a polite way. Role-playing what he should have done immediately after the incident is probably the key here. You can also talk about why etc, but I think learning the 'correct' behaviour is the immediate way forward.

If DS flatly refuses to do something I ask him, I would try to work out why he doesn't want to do it and see if I can amend my request to help him want to do it, and explain why I want him to do it. But if I still decided I wanted him to do it, I would expect him to do it. He is an easy child though so it rarely happens.

"We also teach that actions have consequences, misuse of a toy/item will result in that toy being removed, one warning only given, and after a handful of times removing the item, we now don't even need to give one warning. Actions = consequences."

Would AK not say this is a punishment?

I think it depends on the circumstances.

Confiscating a DS because DC hit another DC is a punishment.
Removing a DS because a DC is trying to play it and get ready to go to school is not a punishment if the DC knows the DS will be returned as soon as they are ready.

OK, what about this:

DS keeps touching our TV. He has actually managed to scratch it quite badly. How would you go about stopping him doing it? Would turning the TV off every time he does it be considered a punishment?

I find it hard to distinguish the difference between a consequence and a punishment. Is there a difference?

Really interesting thread - Bertie, I have enjoyed reading your posts - you give a clear explanation of UP - its not easy to get your head round, (I have read the book), mostly because as a society we are so ingrained with the behaviourist model. My DD is 4mths -I am a teacher and am very conscious of the conflict of my job and how I will parent at home. Some one commented earlier about schools taking an UP approach - would love to be involved in something like that - I KNOW rewards and punishments do not work in the long run when trying to change challenging behaviour in teenagers - believe me! Have always had the best results with pupils when I took the time to have a conversation with them. It gets wearing when you have the same cohort of kids constantly 'on report' - achieves very little!

I guess the way I see it, a punishment is something above and beyond a return to the status quo. For instance, if someone was caught stealing at work, the consequences of that could be that they have to pay the money back and their colleagues think less of them. The punishment could be that they lose their job. The first two bits aren't punishments, they are consequences. Of course, losing the job could be seen as both punishment and consequence so it isn't a perfect analogy!

I think consequence is the same as punishment.

e.g. (and I don't mean this critically, AngelDog)
"We have certain rules e.g. when playing at the sink, if the water goes all over the floor, that's the end of playing at the sink. The consequence isn't a punishment, but an action-consequence link."

To me, that's a punishment - the consequence is simply that the floor's wet.

Doesn't mean I wouldn't stop the playing if the wet floor were annoying me, but I wouldn't describe it as a consequence, I'd say, 'I'm getting annoyed the floor is wet so let's clean it up and do X instead"

What MavisG said is how AK sees it and he is emphatic that you must see things his way or you are not doing UP. You may consider yourself to have adopted some UP ideas, but it's not UP unless it's total/pure/All or Nothing.

Mavis: what would you do if your child ignored your suggestion to do something else & proceeded to make a huge mess, splashing everywhere? I think that's the discipline moment that many would-be UPers (& their critics) struggle with.

I'd yell 'OI! I said that was annoying me!'

And if that impressive display of calm parenting didn't get his attention I'd pinch the plug if I could get at it, turn the stopcock off, throw towels at him & see if I could get him to help me clean it up.
If this didn't work, maybe he's motivated by being pissed off with me & I'd try to find this out & get to the bottom of it.
Or maybe he just really felt the need to splash/make a mess - so I'd try to meet that need in a more convenient way - outside with paddling pool/buckets, or in the bathroom where it's easier to clean up, or maybe he'd like to go swimming or hire a rowing boat at the park.

I really loved AK's Unconditional Parenting. But I've definitely needed examples from other parents in real life and online to help me get comfortable with what I actually want to do in different circumstances. And it's a long time since I read the book; no idea if everything that resonates with/appeals to me would pass some AK UP test.

What's stayed with me though is that UP isn't about loving your children unconditionally - (almost) all parents love do this. It's about your kids feeling unconditional love from you. For our family, that looks like, no praise, no 'telling off' - just giving information, e.g. 'We don't usually shout or talk loud on buses or trains because it annoys other people: we talk quietly.' (Disclaimer: I've one child, he is only 3. Take anything I say with a whole salt cellar.)

This is a really interesting thread. I liked Bertie's first post explaining, particularly the bit about 'time out' vs 'breathing space'. This is something I struggle with, I agree with the idea that time out is not the best way to discipline children as it's like a withdrawal, but have found myself slipping into using the step as a punishment. I think partly because I get angry when DD's misbehaving and I give in to the urge to 'get my own back/show her who's boss'-type feelings, and that leads to me using the naughty step. I did originally start off using it as a place for us to sit together while she calms down, and then I would talk to her about the behaviour, but it's degenerated into me sending her or threatening to send her to the step.

This has made me realise I need to work harder at controlling my own feelings and I'll try using shared time out again, with us both having some calming down time. I've read UP and didn't really like it or understand how it could work in practice but it turns out I'm using some of the UP principles after all (not including the step )

I've never actually read UP all the way through and this thread prompted me to start reading it again the other night.

My feeling is that it is pitched entirely wrongly. It's written as a parenting guide, whereas actually what it is is a critique of the currently generally accepted "right" way to raise children and manage their behaviour. It would read much better, to me, as a sociological/psychology text and if it was aimed generally not at parents but at sociologists, psychologists, behaviourists (etc) interested in this field, people who work with children, and parents/people intending to be parents as a subset of this rather than being the main audience.

I will answer some other posts later as DS is asking me... something, and I'm sort of ignoring him and I don't often get time off during the week to do things with him.

Consequence does not mean the same as punishment, but many people use it the same way.

The dictionary definitions:

Consequence: A result or effect of an action or condition.
Punishment: The infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offense.

So, you can see that "consequence" is a neutral term whereas "punishment" is negative. However, a punishment is a type of consequence, it's just an imposed one by the adult. You may see people refer to "natural consequences" which means, basically, something which would happen whether the parent is there to intervene or not, such as going out without a jumper in winter means you will get cold. But they can also be pretty minor in the scheme of things, such as if you spill water on the floor, the floor will get wet. Your average toddler might not be at all bothered by this, so clearly you can't rely on natural consequences solely as a behaviour management tool, they also don't work in some situations, e.g. if you run out into the road and there are no cars, or even there is a car, but it stops, nothing will happen, but clearly you don't want them running out into roads whether there are cars coming or not!

So the next type of "consequences" you hear about are "logical consequences" which tend to be where the adult imposes some kind of consequence onto an action which makes sense, for example, if you are using a toy inappropriately, I will have to take it off you for the safety of you and everyone else. And also the age-old "clear up your own mess"

Of course since "consequences" is a neutral term it can also be used positively, a consequence of working is getting paid, a consequence of getting dressed quickly means you have more time to play in the mornings, etc etc.