I know you will think this is very wrong of me but.....

[CliffRichardSucksEggsinHell]

I am starving my children to teach them a lesson!

The story is that dd, for 3 weeks now, has been refusing her meals. She sits there in front of it, perhaps occasionally picking up a single carrot or eating all the pasta that has not been tainted with sauce of any kind. She will then eat her pudding and ask for more dessert. Ds does the same, although admittedly he has been ill recently, but today he has eaten chocolate, yoghurts and compotes without any objection, yet when given his pasta dish, he threw a wobbly that the pasta was mixed in with the sauce and threw the lot across the table.

Sooooo, we have had enough. They have never had anything different to what we have had. We have tried the approach of just taking it away, giving them their pudding and that's that, but that is what they have been living off for 3 weeks now. They've recently started becoming fussy over their breakfasts too.

I'm not one to make an issue over food, but after watching dd again move her food around her plate with a sulky face, and witness ds throw his food all over the table, we have decided on drastic measures.

They get a drink of milk at supper, a drink of milk at breakfast. Absolutely no snacks of any kind. Dd goes to school with just milk inside her, hopefully she will eat her lunch. At tea-time they do not get any dessert unless they have eaten well, if they have not eaten their lunch they do not get any tea. We are hoping that they will get so hungry they will start eating again.

So you can condemn me now!

CliffRichard, I do understand your frustration. Ds is generally an OK eater but he has been through phases where he thrusts his food away or just plays with it and it is really awful. Am trying not to make a big deal of it as I don't want to do anything that would lead to picky eating (am hoping he will take after his father, not me!). And I feel so sorry for my poor mother now I'm on the other side. She ended up giving us milkshakes with raw egg to try and get something nutritious down us. Of course, that was before salmonella was such a huge issue. Not sure it would work with hard-boiled egg!

Love your advice norwegian fir.

Love your name BJ!

I'm not condemning you, goodness knows we have all been there at some point. But I will eat my hat (I am NOT a picky eater) if this works.

You've gone from not making an issue over food to effectively turning this this into a battle of wills with your dd. I'll be amazed if you don't crack first.

I don't think your ds is old enough to understand what you are doing, or for that matter be able to eat competently with cutlery, especially at the end of the day when he is probably tired. My dd is three and still not great with a fork - often still uses spoon and /or fingers. Irritablility and tantrums are hugely linked with hunger at this age (even for my ds who is nearly 6) so if you are only offering him milk that's kind of shooting yourself in the foot.

I don't understand see the wasted food issue either if they are eating the same as you - it's not like you've gone to extra effort. Just give them a tiny bit, if they eat it fine, if they don't then just take it away. Any fuss and they leave the table. I only offer pudding as an extra - ie if everything is eaten. And I have been known to put left food back in the pot if it's untouched!

For your ds and tantrums - what about putting him in a playpen/ travel cot if he doesn't behave? I think the throwing food sounds like frustration and attention seeking - maybe you're trying to get your dd to eat and he's wanting the focus to be back on him?

Ok, I understand your points. Re. the cutlery thing, he has a small spoon and fork to eat with, he wants to use the fork so we let him. If he struggles we always try to help him, but this seems to make him worse. If he ate with his fingers we wouldn't mind so much. He has always had a bad temper, from birth! We usually try to ignore it, but this is difficult when he is physically harrassing us whilst we are trying to eat. I do not give him milk as a substitute, they have milk at breakfast and supper and not at any other time of the day.

He did not have any tea yesterday, just a glass of milk for his supper. He has a glass of milk for his breakfast and the creché have told me that he ate bits of his pasta but left the rest - and this is a meal he used to eat with relish! They will have given him snacks though, something that I will not do.

I've had a word with dd's school and they said that she only eats a little of her main course, but usually all her dessert. So I've asked them not to give her any snacks during the school day (unless it is fruit) and not to give her any dessert unless she has eaten a reasonable amount of dinner. They have agreed to do this.

They can both have some tea tonight, if they don't eat it, the food is taken away and they get nothing else apart from the usual glass of milk at bedtime. In fact dd may not even get that, I only give it to ds because he's just 2 and needs the nutrition.

The wasted food is because I am throwing away their meals time and time again. I could make a lot less if I knew they weren't going to eat it. In the mornings I put special effort into making them porridge with honey and cinnamon, which they have both previously liked, only the past few days I've ended up just putting my efforts into the bin. So unless they ask for breakfast, they only get a piece of fruit, nothing else.

Trust me, I've been through everything else. I know what you are saying about making it an issue, but ignoring it didn't help, it just meant that they were getting away with eating nothing.

I personally think stopping the next meal is a bit harsh. It's a bit harder to grasp when it's the meal the next day beign stopped, and breakfast is important. I just do eat or go without. Usually they then hingry enough to gobble the next meal. We don't always have dessert, but they def don't get it if they not eaten savoury. I also think 2 is too young for a fork. Ds is 3.5 and can't manage a fork.

Oh. So no snacks and no pudding - fine. Really it's just breakfast they are not getting? Can you not just offer them cereal? That's no effort really is it? Can understand not wanting to make porridge every day if it's not eaten.

I'd be reluctant for my children to think that breakfast is optional. It's a really important meal. By not offering it, that's what you are saying. It's a different thing if they are offered it but don't eat it.

But they don't eat their breakfasts! So why make it?
And he wants to have the fork. But I may take it away.

Ok, I'll offer, but what if they don't eat it?

Just a thought, but if they had vitamins you could stop the glass of milk too, if they hadn't eaten, and let them go to bed hungry if they hadn't eaten their tea. That works wonders with mine - they hate goin bed hungry.

Because Cliff, they will. It's the drip drip effect. It's a long game, this eating thing. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow.....but they will, I bet you.

Maybe get them to help you make breakfast at the weekend? Eggy bread - messy and fun? Boiled eggs - they can work the timer/ draw faces on the eggs? Cut up fruit for fruit salad/ add to cereal?

if mine don't eat soemthign it goes in the bin with no comment and they go hungry. If it's tea I actually send them to bed too. That's enough for them to understand, and not making a big issue over it that they will play on.

And if they don't eat it tomorrow, just breathe, smile, ignore and clear away.
Breathe, smile, ignore and clear away....your mantra.

dd helps in the kitchen sometimes, but she doesn't eat what she has helped make!
I do have vitamin tablets so I'll do that with dd, thanks Kelly.
It will be a long ride I'm sure, but I don't crack! Noooooo, I never crack!

lol, good luck with it.

I'm confused, can't you ask her DD what she'd like for her savory tea, if she then rejects it then fair enough, no dessert; but I'm confused about the rest.

How old is your DS? I have a 18m old DS and I still cut him a lot of slack; he's too young to understand otherwise. He doesn't get pudding if he doesn't eat the savory, but I let him have a range of what's on offer wihtout insisting on a healthy balance like I do with the older ones.

Actualy, I don't understand people who get fussed over picky eaters at all. DD doesn't eat tea most nights -- so what? Why should I get bothered about it? A friend said that it would drive her crazy if her DD did that, but why? DD sometimes gets an apple or a little drink of milk at bedtime if she turns around & begs for them then. But generally doesn't bother me if she doesn't eat (she's quite small for age, too).

I don't give them choices, they have what we are having to eat. I don't want to get into the whole separate meals things, it takes me enough time to make one dish for us all, let alone different ones for the kids!

The Little Demon is 2 (on Sunday)

In my house you definitely don't get dessert if you don't eat your meal, and for that I was accused by my mother of treating DS like a dog. She regularly looks after my nephew and cooks him up to 5 different main meals a night until he eats something, (no wonder he doesn't eat - he can afford to be picky!)

My DS eats well, but he does go through stages of not wanting his dinner. I would never withhold actual meals though, would at least give them three main meals a day and give them the opportunity to eat a main meal, I understand about not giving dessert if main meal not eaten, but not giving dessert or next main meal is putting a lot of pressure on the kids that they must eat this meal. or they'll go hungry for a very long time. I would also have doubts as to whether a 2 year old really does understand the concept of no dinner = no breakfast.

Also, i found with my DS that less = more, as in, if I only put a little bit of food on his plate, he is more likely to eat it than if I pile his plate high, too much food can be very daunting - have you seen the size of some of the "childrens portions" in restaurants!

Re you DS tantrums, I would remove him from the table, and like a previous poster suggested, perhaps put him in a playpen or travel cot for 2 minutes and ignore him totally, then go back and tell him that if he's nice he can come back to the table and eat. also, if you watch him, and just before he's about to throw his plate, remove it and tell him no, and then say if he eats nicely he can have the plate back.

One other thing - my DS is not allowed to leave the table until we have all finished eating, so even if he doesn't eat, he has to sit there until we've all finished. sometimes this does actually result in him eating something he wouldn't ordinarily have eaten.

bit of a long ramble sorry

No playpen

Sorry, I was thinking specifically about whether they had sauce on their pasta or not, not that you should start catering for them like a restaurant. Mine get a range of veggies, meat if they want & I've done it, & then whatever starch I've cooked up, too... no choices on the starch, or they'd choose toast every night, I'm sure. But within limits they can choose sauce or add butter or mayo (not ketchup always, though), certain vegies, etc.

you could have my babyden thing if you weren't such a bint

Don't want yours! So nerr!

OK, don't give them milk before the meal - only afterwards and not a great big beaker full either. Just ignore your DS - it is the only way to break the cycle. If he is sat at the table behaving ok, chat away about nice stuff - giving a bit of praise if he's eating but not going overboard. If he is being a pain in the arse give him no attention at all. He will cotton on - hopefully sooner than later - that the rules have changed.

My DS is a lot like yours and I followed some advise I saw here on MN. No desert untill all or most of his meal is eaten. This has now been extended to no TV until all or most of his meal is eaten. Trouble is he drives me mad asking 'is that enough?'. I sometimes set the clock if he starts messing and I stress that he doesn't have to eat.

DS has serious allergies and I understand kids with alergies tend to be very funny about food cos it can make them so ill. I do worry about his relationship with food as I don't think he gets any pleasure from eating 'proper food'.

I was a fussy eater as a child and when I finally started to like food there was no holding me back. ALways have to watch my weight now and I don't have a good relationship with food. I remember as a child not being bothered by hunger and saw it as a kind of challenge to see how weak and hungry I could get.

I also think it is sooo hard not to show anxiety or anger with their crazy ideas - that pasta touched that pea aaagh.

I have resorted now to giving DS really plain food that I know he will eat like pasta drizzled in olive oil with plain veg and plainly cooked meat. I went through a phase of cooking more elaborate things for him but I am having much more success with the plain food. I have even started to give him white bread and now he is asking fro brown. Love to hear how you get on so keep us posted.

Wondering if you need a slighly different approach to this with regards their ages. Not an expert by any means and Im not sure what to suggest for your DD but my DS (2 last sunday) is a pita at mealtimes.

Weve tried all the usual, sitting with us, helping to prepare, offering (limitd) choice beforehand blah blah blah, and the only thing that works is the good old 'if you dont eat your main course, you dont get pudding(or fruit/whatever)'.

Were right in the middle of it now and its slowly working.

I dont expect a clear plate but a reasonable attempt at trying everything and in an acceptable manner (not launching it across the room).

I dont think pandering to the seperate sauce as some have mentioned is a good idea. I think your asking for trouble there.