I'm so mad I could fucking explode!

[PrettyMeerkat]

My daughter is so difficult ALL the time. I can't handle it anymore.

This morning she didn't want cereal. She says she doesn't like it, although she liked it 2 days ago. I offered her cereal, toast or something out the fruit bowl. All I get is "don't like it, what can I have?". so I tell her the choices over and over and keep telling her there is nothing else. I can't afford to have 20 things in the house for her to choose from so I give her a few choices. I did the same yesterday and she ended up going to school with an empty stomach because she decided she doesn't like fruit (bullshit), cereal (more bullshit) or toast (all bullshitted out now!)

She wants a pan ou chocolate thing but we don't have any.

So this morning I tell her the choices and she turns her nose up, so I explain (yet again) about how some children have no food at all and how she needs to choose from something that we do have and not be so fussy. She still turns her nose up so I made the cereal anyway and put it on the table. I told her it was there and that is was up to her is she ate it or not. I can't force her to eat it after all.

After lots of wingeing she sits at the table and eats a mouthful and then complains that she doesn't like it so I said it was up to her if she ate it and if not she would go to school hungry. She had a small orange instead.

Then I am about to go and get washed (which is the end of breakfast time every day) and she asks for a hot chocolate, I say no as I don't have the time to make it. She starts saying "well what can I have then?" in a whining way and I explain YET AGAIN that she should of had one of the choices I gave her. She says "why won't you give me food" in a 'your starving me sort of way'. I lost the plot. I called her a spoilt little girl and a brat and swore numerous times. I went upstairs to get washed and she started following me crying but I told her to keep away from me as I knew how mad I was.

What she wants me to do of course is spend 15mins showing her absolutely everything in the fridge and cupboards and then for her to mull it over and finally come to a decision which would probably be sweets. I would then of course tell her that we don't have sweets at breakfast time so she would say something else she couldn't have (bacon that I haven't time to cook) and so on. I am not going to do that!

This is all after the getting dressed drama as well. She is so fussy about what she wears but not consistently (the same as with the food) she will have a favourite one day and it just HAS to be that but the next it is something else. Yesterday I put some clothes out for her but it wasn't the one's she wanted so I told her to go and get the one's she wanted. Today I didn't get any out and told her that it was her responsibility. She decided in her head what she wanted to wear before checking if it was clean, it wasn't. So we had loads of "where is my dress with the bow" and me telling her it's in the wash so she has to pick something else and then her saying " I haven't got any school clothes" and whining and me telling her that she has, just not the one she wants. After her dad shouting at her to put on ANYTHING even if it isn't her favourite and me telling her that if she isn't dressed I will drag her to school naked, she finally put some clothes on.

The final straw after the clothes and then the breakfast was her medicine. I called her to come and have it and she ignored me. I suppose because I was alreay wound up I lost it. She is now in her room and I have told her not to come out. We are going to be late for school but I am so mad at her that I am scared of what I might do. I don't believe in smacking but have come very close this morning. In fact when I took her to her room it wouldn't surprise me if it hurt her a bit as I was gripping so tightly.

I just don't understand her or know how to deal with her. It is like she is sooooo contrary and controlling! It doesn't seem to really matter what happens as long as she controls it and it's a nightmare.

I am sure someone will come along as say it is a phase but she ALWAYS been like this! She's 5.

Ah, re-reading I see that you do have school uniform. Maybe then I should say hallelujah for boys school uniform. Trousers, shirt, jumper for DS2. Trousers, shirt, tie & blazer for DS1. No variations allowed by either school .

you see, you say you "keep telling her".

No.

Just tell her once.

WAY too much attention otherwise.

My gorgeous 3yo daughter often turns into the devil at bedtime.
It is hard.
You're not alone.

onepieceofcremeegg That's a good idea about letting them chose cereal for the week. My youngest chose the one they have at the moment though and so DD5 doesn't like it!

chimchar I have heard about the being filmed thing before. I am always so calm when other people are around and it probably is just because I know I am being watched. How awful is that though?! That it takes that to make me calmer and not shout and swear!

WriterofDreams It's not that I think she is being manipulative, but she just wants to have everything her way. It makes me wonder if she is insecure if she feels the need to control everything. We did the mealtime chat thing with dinner. The improvement was sooooo slow. About a year or something!

greygirl Let's hope she survives till then eh? What do you mean?

bumblingbovine We do have chats about things. She generally though will say that she hates bananas (for eg) but I know she liked them last week. I really don't think the problem is the actual food, it's the control. She is the same with her clothes, even school uniform and she is the same with . . . well everything. I worry that she has some emotional difficulties. I went through an awful time when I was pregnant and for the first few years of her life (I was bereaved) and feel that my reaction and the state I was in (depressed, anxiety disorder) has affected her. I am so much better now but she is still as difficult so I worry that it has affected her permanently.

emmanumber3 Really? You think my reaction was normal? That is sort of reassuring but surprising. I always think everyone else is super calm and I am a lunatic! (Yes even manages to be fussy about uniform!)

Chandon Maybe I should do the "question asked and answered" thing that someone suggested to me once on here.

Would it make things easier for you if you bought your DD identical uniform items? So 3 identical shirts or trousers? Thats what I do but maybe easier with a boy?

Maybe (just a thought) she has problems being decisive? That seems to be a problem my DS has. He's quite impulsive and will give me the first answer that comes into his head if he answers at all! and then 3,4,5 minutes later after thinking change his mind.

I now say on the way home from school dinner tonight is x or y, think about it on the way home and tell me when we get there. Then during dinner - after you can have x or y, think as you eat and decide after. etc etc. You could always do it for breakfast at bedtime?

He 'helps' me write a shopping list. He decides which dessert he wants for the week (mouses/yoghurts etc), which sandwhich filling, which fruit and which coke bar/cake and I buy that. I then don't have to get him to make a decision and he's had choice in the matter iyswim?

It doesn't disolve all whinging or arguments but does seem to prevent paving way to many confrontations.

Oh and yes this reaction is totally normal. We're parents not superhuman.

My 5yo DD is exactly like this, and it isn't her age, it's her personality.
I ignore, ignore, ignore, offer 2 choices only, time how long she has left ( to eat, to dress etc) give her 20, 15, 10, 5, 2 minute countdowns.

Sometimes it works. Today it didn't, but I just don't get angry any more, ignoring the behaviour is all that works.

I have asked her why she does it, she says she can't help it, she's too tired not to (and she is really tired atm, mainly because she hates going to sleep too!). It's about control I suppose, and I do try to give her freedom as much as is possible, though that's difficult when there are certain thing we /have to do before school etc.

Thank goodness her school has a uniform!

Have you considered that the main way your DD learns how to behave is through watching you? So when you 'lose the plot', call her names and swear at her you show her the way to behave like an angry, out of control person. I think it would be better for her to go to school hungry occcasionally than to be at the receiving end of your emotionally abusive behaviour.

If my boss was unclear about what my job was, changed the expectations at work on a daily basis and then shouted and swore at me, I would be pretty likely to quit my job. Your DD doesnt have that choice, so she continues to be confused about what it is you actually want.

I know I sound harsh, I feel pretty harsh towards adults who can't keep their temper and swear at 5 year old children.

Get a grip, be clear about what the rules are (you're not sure, so how is DD supposed to be?), praise when she behaves well and ignore when she doesn't...and if you feel you may lose the plot, lock yourself in the bathroom for 2 minutes. Because if you can't control yourself, why do you expect your 5 year old to behave better?

Is she always like this, or is it possible that she has some issue at school and is delaying getting there?

Pretty, your DDs behaviour may well have something to do with her early history and your mental health at the time. Did the bereavement you suffered affect her directly too? I have similar dynamics with my DD who's first mum died when she was very young. There's lots of useful advice here about how to address it practicallly but maybe you yourself could do with some counselling to 'reframe' how you feel about her behaviour - it might be much easier to stay calm and in control if you can see why she's needing the control and/or attention (to feel safe) and why it triggers such anxiety in you.

It feels to me like that's the most important thing, otherwise you may begin to feel angry and resentful and this will just increase her anxiety, your guilt etc etc.

Also you might find it helpful to find ways to give her some freedom of choice if you're tending to limit her almost as a reflex - i found myself doing this, maybe as a way of asserting (or trying to!) who's in charge - but it can be counterproductive, if she feels constantly thwarted. Its a wierd mix of giving more freedom but less choices (so she doesn't become overwhelmed with too much)

Your GP might refer you to someone given your history, this will save you money if that's a concern. I know it's helped me to see a therapist. Also a book called 'the explosive child' (see amazon for reviews). she doesn't sound explosive per se but issues of trying to control situations sound quite familiar.

You are trying so hard to give her the childhood you didn't have (again I recognise this in myself) You just need to focus your energy on what really matters and be kind to yourself and to her. remember 'good enough' parenting is good enough. No one can be perfect.

sorry i reread my post and it makes it sound like its all about your problems that need sorting. its not. she may very well have issues of her own as you suspect and its not your fault, you were having a really hard time when she was learning how the world works. For you and her, get to a GP and ask for some help.

Jajas glad I'm not the only lunatic around . . . sort of!

youarekidding I don't think I can do the identical uniform thing. She is very into "styling" herself (fashion designer in the making!) so it would be quite harsh to take that away from her I think. I do involver her a little bit with the shopping but mostly about what she is going to have in her lunch all week.

jugglingmug I think it would be better for her to go to school hungry occcasionally than to be at the receiving end of your emotionally abusive behaviour -

thingamajig Yes she's always been a tricky one, literally since that first day in hospital. It's like she has wanted to be in charge of the world since she came out of the womb!

newfashionedmum I have spoken to the dr about it several times over the years and she always felt that I was just being too harsh on myself, but that could have just been the way I told her. Do you think there might be counsellors who specialise in this? In helping people not allow their childhood affect their children's upbringing? That would be so helpful I think! I have a book called "when you kids push your buttons and what you can do about it" which is brilliant and all about this, but I think talking to someone would be better. My DH always puts me off though as he thinks that there isn't a problem and we are a normal family.

InLimboAgain I do have that book and have only ever read bits here and there but will read it properly, it's just finding the time to really concentrate on it! I have always thought that the right thing to do is to give choices so that children don't feel stifled and to help them learn to make decisions. It works fine for my other child but for my oldest . . . she just takes it and runs with it! A lot of people on here have suggested giving her no choice but that makes me feel uncomfortable.

Hi Meerkat, my firend's DD is like this, I have sat and observed for hours how she has her mum on a little string and pulls it every so often, just so her mum is never getting a minute's peace. She does it because she gets attention, a lot of attention, she even has her mum begging her to eat, and spooning food into her mouth.

When she is over at my house, this doesn't happen. Basically I'm a bit of a "take it or leave it" person,and second, she isn't my daughter so I don't get guilted into doing anything.

What DH and I do is take her word on everything. We put food in front of her. She says she doesn't like it, so we take the food away. We do not offer choices. When she starts off we don't give a response, or a total "oh?" in a flat disinterested voice, we don't rise to her, we don't give her anything to work off. This way she gets no attention from us other than if she is behaving reasonably.

Also, you have to walk away when she kicks off, she's bright, state your position and walk away. She'll then start doing whatever it takes to have you not walk away, because she wants you there. However, when trying to change any undesireable behaviour you will get a burst of truly stepped up and unbearable "more of the same" behaviour. This is the tricky bit, you have to ignore the burst of worse behaviour, it is the reaction of a desperate child doing what they think will work to get what they want. So "I scream once, I get a chocolate, now screaming once gets no chocolate so I'll scream 30 times." The problem is, if you give in to that 30th scream she thinks "to get chocolates now I have to scream 30 times" and the situation is worse. Thus you need to modify your responses to her and then stick to it, even if her behaviour escalates for the next 7-8 days just so the message gets across.

And all the time you wrestle with her your other child gets less attention. If your DD deep down wants more attention than her sibling, she is clearly suceeding!

Good luck!

Miggsie Thanks for your reply it was helpful.

I have started threads on here before about how difficult I find my lovely DD, but each time I do I can't seem to get it across very well. I will give examples (for eg. breakfast) and people will often think that the problem is breakfast times and will advise on how to deal with those, but I think it is more just how difficult I find dealing with her in everyday situations, every single day, not always the same but there is always something.

When she was tiny she would cry every time she was changed, an awful "I am being murdered" cry. She was like that from birth so that's why I think the way she is, is just the way she is. She carried that on until she was a toddler and it was so hard to deal with EVERY day. She had some health problems as well that were hard to deal with so that didn't help although she is better now.

She wouldn't take any comfort from my voice. It was like she couldn't hear me (probably couldn't over the crying) but I really noticed the difference when I had my youngest as I could calm them with nice voices etc. Nothing calmed my daughter.

When she was a toddler she would scream in the car constantly if awake, so if we had to drive for an hour then she would scream for an hour. There was never anything wrong and would be fine once out of the car. That sort of stuff gets to you!

As soon as she could talk she would tell me which way to drive the car and tell me to drive faster. I would explain at first why I couldn't do those things but eventually would just say that mummy is in charge of the car and that I decided.

She had tantrums to beat all tantrums from about 11 months and would scream at me in anger from about 7 months if I wasn't fast enough getting her the thing she wanted.

She needed a day time nap up until she was 4 and if she fell asleep too late in the day would wake up absolutely unconsolable. To the point where she couldn't eat or do anything. She would stay like that for a couple of hours and nothing I did helped.

I am not saying that the advice isn't helpful, it is, it's just that I deal with one tricky situation which the next day (like today) won't be a problem, but it will be something else.

Sorry just offloading this evening. We actually had a really lovely day today. All was calm this morning and this evening, although she was hysterical after having a nap but once she had calmed down we played games together for 2 hours and she was laughing her head off. It was great!

meerkat sorry, I've just reread my post and know it sounded awful...I was reacting to another situation I'd seen at my DCs school, part of which involved the mother swearing at a very little child. Wasn't you though, so what I said was uncalled for.

I can see that you find your DD very difficult, and can understand why. I see what you mean about the advice you get, whatever you change she'll be difficult about something else tomorrow. It's hard but if you can avoid reacting when she's hard, and praise like mad when she's lovely (like yesterday) then she'll learn to do more of the good stuff. The attention she gets from you is what she wants and she doesn't care how she gets it.

I would also suggest setting aside a time each day that is just for her...or set days if every day is too hard to fit in. So that she knows that she will have your attention to herself for half an hour, at this time, to do what she'd like to with you. Hopefully this will benefit both of you, becasue you'll begin to see the lovely, funny bits of her (which will make up for the horrible bits). I have a bath with DD1 a couple of times a week (she's 4), I wash her hair for her, we sing songs together, and then we get out and have some cuddles before she goes to bed. She is much easier to settle if she's had that time to herself (and I find her more enjoyable to be with).

Feel free to ignore me, just wanted to make a more constructive point that earlier in the week.

Liittle children do pick up on anxiety, particularly about food. If you are generally anxious and on edge she will know this. You mentioned bed time being hectic and you sound as though you are short of time. Are you getting support from her dad, it might be that he could handle breakfast for a while to break the cycle?

Are you looking after yourself? It sounds like you have had a hard few years. Having dcs certainly brings back memories and feelings about your own childhood which can be disturbing. You may need to see a gp about anxiety\ depression.

I sometimes use a light hearted approach with the kids, so if i only had porridge I'd say 'would you like porridge or porridge? '.

jugglingmug Sorry only just seen the extra messages, thought the thread was dead. I was shocked by what you said and it played on my mind (the Emotionally Abusive thing) but I think it might actually be a good thing. It keeps popping in to my head when I am feeling angry with her. I swore once quietly today (think I may have got away with that one) but I think generally I have been less like that. So thanks!

OP I think you have been really honest and I think that is amazing. It's hard to admit that you can be less than a perfect parent. I do not have much to add except to say I often feel that if I'd hired someone to look after my children and I overheard her say or do some of the things I do then I'd sack her. I'm trying hard to be a better mum but I struggle with 3 young ones and find the constant clearing up unbearable. I do imagine I'm being watched at times to tame myself I can be snappy and impatient and feel guilty if I shout too much etc
Maybe you need a bit of time out to enable you to parent your more difficult daughter.
Obvious I know but really try to get it.
Good luck x

Tuppenyrice Sorry you are having a hard time too. I do need time out yes. I work from home occassionally but only once my children are asleep, so it's not really a break, as I work after having done a full days childcare.

I don't really get a break much at all (even to go to work would do). My DH works all day and then often in the evenings as well so it's hard for me to do anything. I can't even work in the evenings at the moment as he is, so the more he works the less I can.

I have had the odd few hours to myself (or done the odd days work) over the last few years and I find that when I get home I am so pleased to see my children and have loads of patience with them. I wouldn't want to leave them all the time, but I don't think it helps that I am not doing it at all.

I also feel like I am losing myself as my profession is sort of who I am, so in not working much I am losing that. I just feel old and tired and particularly this week have felt like I have lost my identity. I wouldn't want anyone else to look after my children really but a part time job would be good for me.

I feel like I need to do things for me, like go to a music festival or something, just go and experience something!

The clearing up drives me crazy too!

PrettyMeerkat - I totally emphathise with you, we have three young dc and I feel wrung out like an old dishcloth by the time they're in bed. Our middle dd is nearly 5 and sounds just like yours; I love her dearly but am utterly worn out by her. The other two dc aren't particularly easy going either...and don't get me started on the squabbling and the mess!

Sorry, have nothing constructive to add, just wanted you to know that someone else feels the same.

Do a weekly breakfast menu. Go over it with her, - try to get some buy-in from her - what jam will you have on your toast? Spaghetti or beans on THursdays? Crunchy or smooth pb? THen stick it on the fridge. Then TELL her each day

'It's Monday so it's cereal today.
Tuesday - toast & jam.
Wednesday - treat day - pains au choc
THursday - beans
Friday - bread & peanut butter or whatever, etc etc.

You can even get everything ready on table the night before.

No choice. No option. No whining. She eats or she doesn't. She has a set time to be downstairs, set time to be sat at table for and if nothing goes in, she goes to school hungry with just a glass of water. She has already 'signed off' the menu.

(...And for the whooooole day you worry about her being starving and unable to concentrate...) but if it just takes a week or two, it has to be worth it?

I'm fairly strict about breakfast. The DDs can choose, but if they suddenly 'go off' a favourite, they know that I will not turn my world upside-down to go shopping to get what they want - they'll have to wait until normal shopping time. They are fine with this and will always accept toast or sandwiches as an alternative.

They tell me what they want as they are dressing in the morning - I do sometimes have to remind them that no, they cannot snooze in mummy and daddy's bed, they are supposed to be getting dressed and thinking about breakfast. They also know that difficult things are not on offer on weekdays.

Uniforms are laid out the night before. The same applies to non-uniform days - clothes will be got ready the ngiht before. We have no tantrums over clothes since the time I sent DD1 to school with no shoes on - she was having a strop about putting them on, so I said 'Fine, go without' and so she did. She did not enjoy wearing her plimsolls all day!

It's hard, but a little bit of draconian behaviour pays off in the end...

I can relate to these personality traits!
How is she OK at school or with your husband or relatives?
What age are siblings?