I'm so mad I could fucking explode!

[PrettyMeerkat]

My daughter is so difficult ALL the time. I can't handle it anymore.

This morning she didn't want cereal. She says she doesn't like it, although she liked it 2 days ago. I offered her cereal, toast or something out the fruit bowl. All I get is "don't like it, what can I have?". so I tell her the choices over and over and keep telling her there is nothing else. I can't afford to have 20 things in the house for her to choose from so I give her a few choices. I did the same yesterday and she ended up going to school with an empty stomach because she decided she doesn't like fruit (bullshit), cereal (more bullshit) or toast (all bullshitted out now!)

She wants a pan ou chocolate thing but we don't have any.

So this morning I tell her the choices and she turns her nose up, so I explain (yet again) about how some children have no food at all and how she needs to choose from something that we do have and not be so fussy. She still turns her nose up so I made the cereal anyway and put it on the table. I told her it was there and that is was up to her is she ate it or not. I can't force her to eat it after all.

After lots of wingeing she sits at the table and eats a mouthful and then complains that she doesn't like it so I said it was up to her if she ate it and if not she would go to school hungry. She had a small orange instead.

Then I am about to go and get washed (which is the end of breakfast time every day) and she asks for a hot chocolate, I say no as I don't have the time to make it. She starts saying "well what can I have then?" in a whining way and I explain YET AGAIN that she should of had one of the choices I gave her. She says "why won't you give me food" in a 'your starving me sort of way'. I lost the plot. I called her a spoilt little girl and a brat and swore numerous times. I went upstairs to get washed and she started following me crying but I told her to keep away from me as I knew how mad I was.

What she wants me to do of course is spend 15mins showing her absolutely everything in the fridge and cupboards and then for her to mull it over and finally come to a decision which would probably be sweets. I would then of course tell her that we don't have sweets at breakfast time so she would say something else she couldn't have (bacon that I haven't time to cook) and so on. I am not going to do that!

This is all after the getting dressed drama as well. She is so fussy about what she wears but not consistently (the same as with the food) she will have a favourite one day and it just HAS to be that but the next it is something else. Yesterday I put some clothes out for her but it wasn't the one's she wanted so I told her to go and get the one's she wanted. Today I didn't get any out and told her that it was her responsibility. She decided in her head what she wanted to wear before checking if it was clean, it wasn't. So we had loads of "where is my dress with the bow" and me telling her it's in the wash so she has to pick something else and then her saying " I haven't got any school clothes" and whining and me telling her that she has, just not the one she wants. After her dad shouting at her to put on ANYTHING even if it isn't her favourite and me telling her that if she isn't dressed I will drag her to school naked, she finally put some clothes on.

The final straw after the clothes and then the breakfast was her medicine. I called her to come and have it and she ignored me. I suppose because I was alreay wound up I lost it. She is now in her room and I have told her not to come out. We are going to be late for school but I am so mad at her that I am scared of what I might do. I don't believe in smacking but have come very close this morning. In fact when I took her to her room it wouldn't surprise me if it hurt her a bit as I was gripping so tightly.

I just don't understand her or know how to deal with her. It is like she is sooooo contrary and controlling! It doesn't seem to really matter what happens as long as she controls it and it's a nightmare.

I am sure someone will come along as say it is a phase but she ALWAYS been like this! She's 5.

Agree on the two choices - which would you like, a or b. No, the only choices are a or b, that's all we have time for.

If you're going to take part in the clothes choice, do the same (I'm lucky that ds isn't picky about his clothes and has school uniform). However, with the dawdling, agree - give a deadline. I have taken ds's bag, clothes and shoes out and put them in the car and he's got dressed in the car on the way to school (frantically) before now, so he knows that I mean business. Still get the odd hiccough - like this morning apparently suggesting that he did his top button up and put on his tie in the car made me into a really wicked, mean mother... but we made up before he got into school. [I should note that the school run is about 4 miles, on the way to work, so really do need to drive ]

I have been trying NOT to indulge her and I thought 2 choices plus fruit was reasonable. The fruit is always there and I am happy for them to take it whenever so it wasn't as though I was backing down by letting her have it.

I always thought it was good to give then a couple of options and it should work but she takes advantage I think. No I think what actually happens is that if I gave her 1 choice she would want the second, if I gave her 2 choices she would want the third, and so on . . .

I don't want to give her the choices and then have her come to me once she's made her mind up (as someone suggested) because she would then drag it out and keep asking for other things anyway. Plus I need to keep to the morning schedule. I know that makes me sound anal but I find it's the only way we get out of the house on time. Breakfast has to be finished by a certain time, kids have to be dressed by certain time, I get to go get washed in peace at a certain time with no interruptions saying "I've decided I want toast now" etc

I think I might do the choosing clothes before bed thing. Bedtime is always so hectic though (like mornings really).

I have been trying not to care if she eats her breakfast (as someone mentioned) and I don't think she likes that. It's only been a couple of days since I got a lot harsher about it so maybe she will adjust. I think she is used to us panicking if she doesn't eat as she is underweight so naturally it's a concern. My DH worries more then me, I think I have just had enough of all the fussiness and trying to keep her happy doesn't get us anywhere. We used to pander to her whims (because of the weight issue) until she was about 2 when I realised it was ridiculous but it's been a long time now. It is never just food though, it could just as easily be which cup she has or which way we walk down the road.

She fusses about everything!

DrGrunt You do your best, all the time, to keep your dd provided for. You're tired and stressed as a result. But STILL the little madam isn't happy. Worst of all - she believes herself to be deprived. No foooood! No school cloooothes! That's touching something inside you -

• That so hit a nerve! I think as a child I felt not listened to and nothing was ever really explained. No one was interested in keeping me safe for example and I had to just accept the way things were to keep the peace (taking a beating from my brother). When I had my children I made a conscious decision to always explain everything, listen to them and consider their feelings.

What you are all saying is what I have been trying to do. Just give her 2 choices (plus fruit as she's a fruit addict, although insisting she doesn't like bananas as the moment but I suspect that is just to be difficult) and keep telling her "this is what you can have" the same with the clothes "what's in your wardrobe or you'll go naked" but she STILL makes such a fuss! Do you think that it is just adjusting to the new harsh mummy? She just wouldn't accept it this morning that I wasn't going to give her something else, and I have a pretty good firm voice!

Wow long post.

You are phrasing the options as kind or harsh.

Actually I find " oh you don't fancy fruit or cereal? Oh that's a shame. Poor old you. But that's it sweetie . Chose one or I am sure you will last until lunchtime"

It may feel less awful if you don't see the situation as she does. It would help if you ratchet down the tension/angst rather than rising to it iyswim.
Because it isn't actually a problem. She is just managing to convince you that not eating is a big drama when it isn't.

mintymellons She's like a mini grumpy adult/mad person in a 5yos body. She reminds me of my aunt who everyone else says I am like! Can't see it myself

JIRkids That's what I do. I try to treat her respectfully for the reason I put in my last post.

mistlethrush Mine has school uniform too but can chose a skirt and shirt or one of her dresses which are in a few different designs. Not that they are all clean at once of course. You wouldn't think it would be possible to be fussy about uniform!

Sorry to hear about your childhood, no wonder you are desperate to do everything for your DD.

I do think that offering a choice is ok, but would rephrase it. "Do you want cereal or toast this morning".

Have a chat with her in the evening and say that she can always have fruit, at any time of the day but you are not going to have this confrontation every morning. She can have toast or cereal, nothing else.

Why don't you offer to prepare a special breakfast on Sundays, that she can help you prepare and she can decide what you are having.

She has toast or cereal during the week, and when she eats breakfast without fuss you bribe reward her with attention and yummy breakfast at the weekend.

Instead of fighting about what she is eating you could be planning the weekend breakfast, pancakes with blueberries, or perhaps bacon this week?

I just can't seem to get the balance right.

What doesn't help is that because my DD is so difficult a lot of the time I can feel my blood pressure rising as soon as she approaches me. So many things are a battle. I love her so much but am concerned about the bond between us staying close and strong as she gets older because of these problems. She is so very demanding that I get tense as soon as she speaks.

Ds rarely has a toast option during the week. In fact, he is presented with a bowl with some oats in. He then gets to choose what topping to have (taken from more' normal' breakfast cereals ). (I'm sure they think I send him to school fuelled up with sugar pops or something).

School uniform choice - sounds horrendous! At least ds just picks up a clean shirt and puts his shorts on.. the worst bit is trying to find a pair of socks that match.

I think what the thread tells you, though, is that you're not alone (lots of us have very opinionated children), and you're not being unreasonable.

Prettymeerkat

Blimey, I know. But none of us - well very few of us- waft around dealing with these things oozing serenity and charm.

I just fake relaxed and then leave the room to gnashing my teeth.

I just realised that ds2 thrived on the heightened atmosphere and got a buzz from the tension even if it involved his getting distresses.

When I then had dd I never let her see me made furious by that kind of whining. She never got a reaction so it tailed off really quickly. Having said that some children will continue long after they should have got the message. drives you batty...

It's one long grim slog lined with tears and rage

Is it really this hard for everyone else? I feel like such a let down and a failure. There are some things that I can see I am doing right but I lose my temper too much. It's just so hard when you have a contrary, controlling child.

I have a friend who breezes through it all and doesn't understand what the problem is. She thinks I should just explain it and my DD will accept it! Huh?! She doesn't accept anything, she argues about EVERYTHING! I guess it's just her personality. But my friends 2 children DO just accept it! I dont' understand it. I try to tell myself that well, my DD as least must be really smart or something to have that much independent thought . . . it gets me through sometimes

yes it is. in one way or another.

you might find that if you do try to disengage a little, that she will calm down and then your relationship will improve.

or not.

sorry, am in particulalry grim parent mode today.

Prettymeerkat my dd is very similar. She's now 10 and has been like it from birth (cried a lot, high needs baby). She regularly throws a tantrum because her food isn't how she likes it, or what she wants.

I used to go into convoluted discussions, negotiations, compromises, arguments until recently I thought "sod this. I'm doing my best and it's still not good enough!" So I made a choice to get tough. Now I say, "You can have this or that. Choose in the next 5 minutes or I'll have to choose for you as we'll be out of time."

There have been tears and tantrums, but I've ignored them (before I would have followed her, shouting or explaining). Her behaviour has improved. It's not easy but I would get firm, don't enter into a long discussion. State the choices, repeat them then ignore any further whinging.

Good luck!

Here is a thread I posted about my dd. It may help - even if it's just to know you're not alone.

Thanks Celia!

OP I understand a bit. I have 2 dds (7 and 3) both of them "strong characters." (haha)

If you dd is 5 and in Reception/Year One then she is likely to get school fruit at morning break? Also you can arrange milk for her mid morning. Would that take some of the stress away knowing that if she messes around at breakfast there will be a carton of milk an hour or so later?

Like you I had a difficult childhood and what Dr Grunt said to you hit a nerve with me too.

I let my dds choose one healthy (ish) box of cereal with the shopping, and that is breakfast. I am harsh, I get very irritable faffing about with toast and jam and peeling fruit etc. So just cereal in a bowl. Get some pains au chocolate for the weekend and make sure there are at least 2 for you. :) drink is diluted fruit juice or milk.

Clothes are sorted just before the bedtime rush and that is it.

I am a bit of a shouter and swearer and I hate it. If dh is home I leave him to it but this is very rare in the mornings. I find going out of earshot (landing/bathroom) and muttering something like "for fucks sake" many times can release a bit of the tension. But I am not a good role model to follow.

Just to add I respond very clearly and calmly to any complaints about the cereal, reiterating that they chose it, and I am sorry that it is now yukky. However mummy will make sure to buy porridge/cornflakes or something much nicer next week.

try and take the conflict out of it. be sunny and cheery and if you can, use tactics like silliness and humour....

so, offer "toast or cereals for breakkie?" she will say something else, so you say "want to hear my joke? knock knock.......blah blah blah" throw her out of the familiar conflict route iykwim? then "right..did you say toast or cornflakes?"

again, with the clothes..."pink dress or green skirt?"

two choices...one or the other. if it makes it easier...allow her to choose the two initial choices the night before..

best tip i remember is to pretend you are being filmed. think about the way you would like to be portreyed and imagine a film crew watching you. it helps me to keep my cool. not all the time, but sometimes it helps.

good luck!

From what you say your daughter sounds like a really bright girl with a lot to say for herself. Remember though that she's only 5 - she has very limited social skills and isn't really trying to be controlling or manipulative, she's just doing what gets results. She's clearly a fast learner so she sees that when she whines she gets that attention she craves but (possibly, just guessing) when she's quiet and well behaved mummy disappears off (with good reason, to get jobs done) and she gets little or no attention.

Could you set the alarm ten minutes early and make breakfast a time to chat? Give her her breakfast and then sit down with her. If she complains say "Oh you don't want to chat to mummy? Alright, we'll throw this away and I'll start getting ready." It's best to make food a background event, something she just does while everything else is going on, rather than the main battle ground. You are placing very negative feelings on her when in fact she's not contrary or manipulative, she's just a little girl who's very clued in and knows how to get what she wants. Remember that a five year old has very little concept of the big picture - she doesn't really understand that her dawdling makes you upset and late and that her behaviour is silly and wrong. She can't keep all that in mind at such a young age. So rather than expecting her to, just make the time pass easily and push things along as calmly as you can. Not easy I know, but worth a try.

Oh and I totally agree re the choices thing, except I'd go one step further down the mean path and give no choice at all

My daughters do this all the time. It has improved since we let them start serving their own cereal (they get their own spoons and bowls and everything). Also we let them pick what cereals will be available in the week (at the moment it is weetabix and shredded wheat) and at weekends they can have a 'special' cereal (which is chocolae weetabix currently).
However I also endure the 'what do you want for breakfast? no reply' x10 routine, and I have started after the third time saying 'right weetabix it is then'.

and they scream for 40 minutes at a time (aged 4!). last week i offered to take them to a new ice-cream farm near us. There was a tantrum because it wasn't the milkshake shop and they wanted a milk-shake (this is an end-of-term treat, very rare). so we went nowhere. This week we went to get an ice-cream and no tantrums! (I was rather pleased).
you aren't alone. Your daughter sounds strong willed, which may be positive in the future. Let's hope she survives till then eh?

I tend to forget and kind of talk rather than communicate iyswim. So when DS is whinging and I'm trying to explain he seems to keep going and I halfheartly repeat myself a million times again and again but suddenly realise I'm not looking at him directly or actually communicating with him - more just communicating to thin air and he happens to be in the room. I really have to stop doing this as its counterproductive.

Since starting the eye contact, thats your choice, and walking away things are improving. If he follows and something else needs to be done I look him the eye and say 'its time to get changed now, you chose not to have breakfast' then distract by yelling 'and I bet I can get dressed before you!'.
Any further whinging is drowned out with 'oh I've got my trousers on, hope you don't beat me'.

Exhausting but less confrontational.

I am going to go agianst the grain a bit here but do people really beliive this child is happy having this difficulty around breakfast every morning?

I do agree with much of the offer limited choices, be firm and ignore etc if this is something that doesn't happen that often. Many children can have off days and that advice is good for that but this is an ongoing problem.

prettymeerkat. Have you thought of sitting your daughter down when you are both calm one day and say something like

"you seemed to be having trouble at breakfast time this morning/yesterday/last .. whatever, you don't seem to want to eat the ceraal or the fruit or the toast. What was that about"

She will probably say she doen't know but with a few gentle questions you may get her to tell you something like that she doesn't like it or that she wants chocolate croissants every day, or maybe she just wants you to sit and talk to her whle she eats (not saying you don't btw).

The point I am making is that, if as you say you know she like fruit/toast etc you don't really know why she is making this fuss and it may be worth trying to find out.

Once you inderstand her problem (even if it is I only want croissants etc) you can say that you undertand that but (then explain your anlt perspective eg, healthy eating , being hungry at school getting in the way of learning)

Then ask her if she has any ideas as to how the probelm could be solved so that both of you are happy. She may not have any ideas but talking to her and listening to her may make her more open to your suggested solutions

You can then make a plan you both agree to. If she then doesn't stick to it
you may have to go back to it again to revise it but eventually yiou will probably come up with something that works for both of you.

It is also giving your daughter good practice in how to solve problems in a co-operative way.

I would add that you do need to listen carefully to any ideas your dd does have even if you think they won't work. you can tell her they won't work but only after thinking carefully about whay they won't work. You may need to be a bit flexible and change soome of the ways you are doing things

I have had a lot of success with my "difficult" ds using this. So much so that now at 6 years old ~(but he has been doing this for 6 months now) after his bath he gets himself totally ready for bed on his own while I am downstairs. He goes to the toilet, puts his pyjamas on, brushes his teeth, picks a cuddly and book all by himself. Then he calls down that he is ready and I go up and do bedtime stories and song etc and then he goes to sleep

This is a child that I used to take an hour of screaming and nagging to get him to do those few things to get ready for bed.

I ended up doing a visual timetable to help him remember what to do and we also agreed that if he was ready in time he could have an extra 10min TV programme before bed. He is also allwed 1/2 an hour extra before bedtime on a Saturday, These were all things we agreed in just such a talk.

Also sorry meant to add. The solution has to make you both happy. So it is not about doing it your daughter's way or about "giving in" to her. You are still the adult but there may be some things you are doing that as the adult you can do differently without it being a problem for you.

You are far more flexible than a 5 year old is.

I am not sure you are going against the grain - i don't think anyone belives the child is happy during this do they?

i just see it as a frustrating behaviour that has developed due to learned responses and a continuing dynamic - like refusing to go to sleep when tired.

reducing the choices and/or the tension is what most of us have said.
it is just how you achieve that without wishing to die in the process

I say hallelujah for school uniform! No argy-bargy about what to wear every morning at least .

Like everyone else has said, breakfast in our house is very much a "do you want A or B"? situation. If neither A nor B is wanted then child goes to school without breakfast. Simple. Likewise if they have been messing about for 1 1/2 hrs, getting ready as slowly as humanly possible & then decide as we are leaving the house that "I need to get some breakfast/a drink" - they go to school without. I am not a morning person & tolerate no messing . Thankfully, my DS's have learnt that pretty well over the years!

I feel your pain though - and please be assured that your reaction sounds perfectly, completely normal to me!

you are indulging her more than you think, by repeating the choices over and over again.

You can say : There's toast or cereal. If you don't eat breakfast, you won't be allowed to go to brownies/friend's house/WII/whatever tonight.

then walk to another room and have your own coffee in peace.

if she whines or cries, put her in her room.

That way you nip it in the bud and it doesn't escalate.

I think that explaining over and over and over again, and dragging in the poor little children who are hungry etc etc only serve to make YOU crosser! It sounds like you talk to much, iyswim

When my DC (youngest just 6) act like this they get short shrift. I become rather monosyllabic and hide behind MN until they behave