Failed our steiner toddler group

[Orangeflower7]

I was looking for a smaller more relaxed kind of toddler group for my ds (2.5). Got a bit fed up with the big busy groups lots of ride ons etc..so tried the steiner group. Just met one of the mums from it today who is 'sad it didn't work out for me' and am feeling a bit of a failure.

I'll explain a bit. It went on for ages and we all had to sit round the table and make a woolen spider which to be honest the children were to young to do- ds got frustrated and threw it away. It seemed that it was for the mums really, (craft) I found it stressful as I had to help make the activity so much whereas ds wanted to go play, and there was no choice of activity, all the mums were sat doing the craft activity so the children who were playing didn't have much input really.

The routine was like this (over 2 hrs) Craft-then (adults make snack which children couldn't eat just yet) -singing-then wash hands (line up) then-sit up and eat snack- then story.

I just found it too much direction and sitting down stuff for a 2 year old..although the (mostly little girls) other children seemed very obedient

It is a shame as it would have been a nice change...didn't find it very child centred though. Please tell me it's not just my ds is it, I do know a little about early years and the emphasis is a lot on play, (adult led and child initiated, choice and independence, how does that sit then with steiner?

So back to the big groups we go.

Wabbit, disturbing isn't it.

He's not the only Rees-Mogg who supports Anthroposophy. His daughter is Emma Craigie, advisor to the Steiner Waldorf Schools Fellowship. Emma's sister is Annunziata Rees-Mogg who has been actively campaigning for the NHS to fund homeopathy under 'patient choice'.

A genuine question for you Wabbit, do you believe Steiner schools should be given state funding under Gove's Free School policy?

hmm - yes, I know what you mean I probably didn't phrase it very well, but that is why Parent and Child groups do crafts (that and the imitation thing - child imitates the intention of our activity in their play.) Though I think very small children are too young to benefit from a few hours a week of 'purposeful work' (kindergarten phrase I can't find a more accessible term for). The thinking is that as a species humans have been engaging in home making activities in their most basic form for millenia... by returning to our roots we are rebalancing the imbalance of activity that modern life imposes upon us...

We no longer engage so physically with our environment and there is great emphasis on cognitive understanding, academia and sedentary work which we counter balance (if we can be bothered) by doing 'exercise' but this isn't how we have developed... surely we function better and more intuitively by engaging holistically with the world?

Simple crafts and baking and stuff are relaxing and grounding aren't they? Loads of non steiner parents I know bake and knit etc for pleasure... I MN for pleasure to counterbalance all the knitting and baking I do at work

I do not run a parent and child group, new parents join our kindergarten with their children so that our settling in period is extended. I then get them grading and polishing conkers

yes, crafts and baking are very relaxing and like you say can be done in the home. For free. Why use these activities in the name of Anthroposophy?

Barking, that's a big question, obviously I believe in the education or I would not be engaged in it... many Steiner schools have not committed to applying for Academy status to protect their pedagogical purity... which I question anyway.

I think it is a good way of ensuring accountability in the Steiner teaching system, being answerable to a larger organisation (govt, society) won't imho do Steiner Education any harm.

I think choice is hugely important for parents, whatever their income or social status (hate that term can't think of another). Making Steiner education available to those who would choose it but can't afford it (I couldn't afford it if I didn't run a Kindergarten) is in my view a huge plus.

I have said that Steiner education is not for everyone, and I really believe this, but I do not mean to sound as though I would pick and choose parents who wish to send their children, we should be able to accommodate children from all walks of life, and if they don't fit in, well, we (along with thousands of other non steiner schools) should look at how we can accommodate them better. It shouldn't be about class or capability, but idealistically maybe... about meeting the needs of the individual.

The Hereford Academy is state funded and there has been lots of chuntering about the age of children entering class one (6+ in most SW schools) from kindergarten teachers because children are leaving Kindergarten at the age of 5+. 'School Readyness' (god we use dodgy terms) is a big thing in Steiner Ed and playing around with this without changing practices in class one to accomodate the younger age of the intake would give me concerns. Cognitively and physically development undergoes big changes at the age of seven (cull of synapses, maturation of organs etc) these are my reasons for concern anyway.

Can't do your question full justice as I've got to get home but, overall I think I'm in favour of state funded Steiner schools.

Because some people don't engage in these activities at home because there are so many distractions! It makes sense to me... not because I believe it's anthroposophical

Wabbit - I don't know anything about you. Quite possibly, you are a hard working and good person, trying to do the best for the children under your care.

My point is that the organization that you work for is a cult. It features in several governments' lists of cults operating in their countries, right next to Scientology. I said this, you got sceptical, and I proved it with links. Now you are trying to find a comeback, but you can't, so you make it personal. But this isn't about you.

Your historical definitions for the word "cult" are neither here nor there. We are all familiar with its use at this point in time, and that is the definition used by the governments whose reports I have linked to.

Your lengthy declarations of "I this, I that" are also irrelevant, just like your attacks to my person (yes, it is my fault that the organization you work for is considered a "cult" .

" Cognitively and physically development undergoes big changes at the age of seven"

So that is why children in Steiner schools are not taught to read & write until the age of 7. Not because Steiner said the reincarnation of the old spirit in their little bodies is complete at this age. Of course not

Hi CoteAzure, I remember you from old threads. I had to change my name a few times on here as one of the representatives from the Swedish Steiner Waldorf Federation kept threatening to threaten libel action to get posts deleted, he even wrote a page on one of the mums here and used to send it to various forum moderators

There is even a document proving he was paid by the federation to 'monitor' anything negative, I'm very tempted to post the link to but fear it will disappear..

I'm sorry you were harassed by these people, barking. It is outrageous. If your posts were libelous, surely that man would have sued you a long time ago.

Oh I remember him, Barking! Can't believe I'm reading Steiner threads again. It's been years (happy years) since we escaped!!

Hi Janni and Cote
I'm loving this idea about a Steiner flash mob event. Count me in!

Sorry Orangeflower - thread overtake again, pity, it was good to be able to answer some queries and hear your experiences.

Think MN will have to take this down now

Hi again I'm interested in the day you described Wabbit at the very experienced Steiner person's group, where the children played in the sunshire and the little boy was dancing like a washing machine. The thing is, I don't see the 'steiner' in there, it sounds like a 'vignette' or whatever the word is..from reggio about the child being creative exploring the movements etc...so I am wondering if the more child centred the approach the better. I wanted to explain that yes, although I can understand that for some children it is too different from home at the kindergarten and that might make it hard from them and about the time to slow down do these grounding activities free from distractions...however Orangeboy does love to do things like baking with me, thing is I let him help in the way he can, it means it can take forever and I have to have patience with him trying to for example whisk butter to see what happens, or crack eggs, but he does it at his own pace and it isn't too difficult (as in the crafts which a child so young couldn't really manage at the group). I think that might be why he got frustrated with it actually, as he's used to doing lots/being involved. Then, when the spider thing had taken the mums so long to finish he was hungry but he wasn't allowed to have a piece of apple (usually I'd be letting him help himself wash it / help cut it or whatever) as it wasn't 'next' he just was in a state, two year olds live in the moment and don't have patience, the ability to wait, or share...although I do think it's easier for them to see when there is enough of something and it's coming their way, if you see what I mean. So, no, it our case we're not busy/hectic/constantly watching telly, we spend lots of time pottering about walking out to the shop or whatever. I just found it became impossibly within that group due to the requirements/ expectations of the adults taking over I guess, or the approach. Maybe rather than getting too into an approach and veering away from the child and their development/needs it's important to learn from experience. Like the friend. Anyway it's not just within the steiner schools there is that 'school readiness' thing about 6 year olds (or around that age). It goes on between reception/yr1 too with some teachers like those in Wales, now having a more play based curriculum up to 7 (end year 1 I think) not sure about Scotland. Children are changing a lot around that age aren't they although I'm not sure about the Steiner reasoning behind the changes. So just wanted to mention it's also in debate in primary teaching. Some schools, like my older dc's state primary, look to the development of the child and they have a 'phase 1' instead of key stage 1 to try and accommodate the changes to children around and up to this age.

Ah yes and wanted to explain the ride ons too, didn't want to seem a kill joy..nut there's one with a roof, which they all go for. Ds' jumps in shuts the door and goes off as fast as possible to get away from the other possible toddlers trying to use it..

Hi OP, the Steiner class sounds like a craft group for mums instead of something educational for kids....I say well done to your little boy for showing some initiative and refusing to be bored! (his technique of using the ride ons is exactly what most of the 2 year olds I've seen do!) We've been to some big groups which felt just like a very large playground but were nice in that they had nursery rhyme singing afterwards (optional if you want/need to go early), another type we tried were those run by private schools (which you pay a bit more, 2 quid or 2.50) which included fruit and milk, and had a large selection of messy stuff (paints, play dough, sand table or water table) which they could pick and choose, and offered a bit more variety, alongside the ride ons, puzzles, etc. Both kinds were fun for him. I do think that very often boys need more physical activity - running around, or some imaginative play, eg pirate ships, tool tables, even toy kitchens/houses. My friends with both sons and daughters noticed this difference in their own children.

DS starts playgroup in September. Their approach is best described as "total anarchy" . Two hours of free play/sand/water/paint etc and then a library with beanbags if they need a bit of time out. I have a good feeling about it.

He can learn to sit still and concentrate when he starts pre-school.

This so entertaining! Had not seen a steiner thread for ages.
Barking, i remember the creepy stalking on those threads!

Lived right next door to steiner house in london when ds was born. Used to take him to their baby groups!stopped at about 18 months because he needed ACTION!

Loved it for the surreal athmosphere on a cold rainy day, but clearly saw it for what it was. Anyone with half a neurone can figure them out after a couple of sessions. Antroposophy is all over the notice boards!

How anyone can consider enrolling a child in a steiner primary is beyond me, unless they plan to live removed reality.

Wabbit, why would MN need to close this thread? It's a fascinating read and really rather civilised.

This thread is very interesting and nor plagued by the personal insults/nasty comments etc often seen on others (bf vs ff for example). There is no need to close this thread or remove it.

'I know there are alot of seriously scary reasons behind the things the teachers do in steiner school and I disagree entirely with the reasons but that surely doesn?t mean the actual things themselves are bad right? The kids don?t know the reasons behind the way of teaching right?'

AandO, that is the whole problem. The goalposts are invisible. It's not the way of teaching, it's what is being developed/taught in the kids that they do not know, are not told, and the parents are not told either. Has anyone told you about the gnomes yet?

The artwork all has its place and purpose in the soul work of the child. Hence the sameness.

You have outlined the massive conundrum you will be faced with every day your child is in steiner ed. The conflict you identified is the same as if you were sending your child to a madrassa (assuming you are not interested in a madrassa). Send your child to an ordinary average National School and forget the steiners. There are worse things than large classes without TAs.

I took DD2 to an art class (wet on wet watercolour) that unbeknownst to me was run by a steiner teacher. DD2 was about 3 at the time and well able to sit still and do what the teacher asked, not fling things around, etc. Yet her artwork puzzled and obviously displeased the teacher. DD told me this but she didn't know what it was that was wrong with her work. It looked lovely to me, swirly and dreamy, pastel colours. Finally after about six sessions the teacher started giving me funny looks and when I asked about DD's art she explained that DD's artwork should have shown some sign of forms in it. DD loved using the paintbrush, making her swirly art, but the feeling that she was falling short of some unspoken expectation was there even though she was only 3. I have since done a lot of reading on the subject and went on to have neighbours who were very into it, so much so that they upheaved their lives and moved to be near a large steiner school.

Wabbit, a cult is a cult is a cult. The crafts and the baking and the Great Outdoors stuff is all there and it's just lovely, but it's just the surface. My parents had all of that and then some growing up in rural Ireland. They were very grounded and that's for sure. To claim that nobody really knows what they are doing and hardly anyone can see through the dense fog of Steiner's talks and writings clearly enough to discern what they are doing and why is bumpf.

FWIW, the Catholic Church condemned anthroposophy as heretical on numerous points of dogma including basic elements fundamental to all Christianity, in 1919, so the negative reaction of the French and Belgian govts is not entirely a 'marginal' view. (Yes I realise that condemnation might be seen as a plus by some wrt steiner ed but there are some things the C C gets right.)

LoremIpsum, mischievous question there.

Wabbit, you said: 'I think choice is hugely important for parents'.
What about the choice for the children?

I would also like to know why you think MN will have to take down this thread. If you are serious about modernising your movement and believe state funding Steiner schools will suddenly make them more accountable (which I doubt given the exemptions that have been granted), why shouldn't we be allowed to discuss the schools in more depth? To read about the history of Anthroposophy, question the authorship of certain research papers, ask why Ofsted no longer inspect the schools etc.

and why do you think the Swedish Steiner Waldorf Federation paid someone to specifically monitor discussions in the UK?

Just happened to notice they are trying to open a free school seemingly steiner-based in Wiltshire as part of the Bruton school-

see www.meadowsteiner.somerset.sch.uk/free-school.php

Don't the parents seem vague/ disillusioned with the state school system? I think there's been a kind of baby boom round here Bristol too and it's meaning these huge classes I wonder if that will mean people turning to these schools.

Also why do some people think they can't do flexi-schooling with state schools, you can. i know people who have their children home 1 or 2 days a week and work with the teacher together, doing work based on the school stuff, maybe an outing say.