Failed our steiner toddler group

[Orangeflower7]

I was looking for a smaller more relaxed kind of toddler group for my ds (2.5). Got a bit fed up with the big busy groups lots of ride ons etc..so tried the steiner group. Just met one of the mums from it today who is 'sad it didn't work out for me' and am feeling a bit of a failure.

I'll explain a bit. It went on for ages and we all had to sit round the table and make a woolen spider which to be honest the children were to young to do- ds got frustrated and threw it away. It seemed that it was for the mums really, (craft) I found it stressful as I had to help make the activity so much whereas ds wanted to go play, and there was no choice of activity, all the mums were sat doing the craft activity so the children who were playing didn't have much input really.

The routine was like this (over 2 hrs) Craft-then (adults make snack which children couldn't eat just yet) -singing-then wash hands (line up) then-sit up and eat snack- then story.

I just found it too much direction and sitting down stuff for a 2 year old..although the (mostly little girls) other children seemed very obedient

It is a shame as it would have been a nice change...didn't find it very child centred though. Please tell me it's not just my ds is it, I do know a little about early years and the emphasis is a lot on play, (adult led and child initiated, choice and independence, how does that sit then with steiner?

So back to the big groups we go.

Oh strange, although the bruton steiner school are saying the free school in Frome will be steiner, it seems it's not, see here

fromefreeschool.co.uk

It will be interesting to hear how that school goes.

Ah sorry there are two schools different ones,

Orangeflower7, the Meadow Steiner school was where Gove announced his proposed Free School funding policy back in May 2009. The school was apparently one of the main inspirations behind this idea.

You raise an important point though, there is a 'Steiner inspired' school being set up in Suffolk by a dedicated Anthroposophist. Beware a run of Eco/Green/Ecology schools applying for Free School status..

restlessnative thanks for that link....the four temperaments are, well, bloody scary!

Classification of children by their shoulders? And their build? My son is like a rake, doesn't dance on his pixie toes, likes spicy food, and takes his friendships seriously with a lot of dedication and love for a 6 yo.

So perhaps not fitting to the stringent classifications, he wouldn't be welcome either?

Many people have expressed a view that Steiner schools in other countries seemed better set up. From Swiss experience they still have to run to their canton guidelines, so a lot of the poppycock is stripped out, and if you can run within the guidelines you can run the school. So it must be watered down considerably with a good dose of Swiss schooling. My ds attends an international school with a GCSE biased curriculum but still has to fulfil Swiss guidelines, as a private school. I think the exception is IB.

This is how Montessori "fit" surely, when Ofsted inspected they were well over and above the guidelines?

The class teachers Handbook - by Kevin Avison - do you own a copy Wabbit?

If this thread gets deleted i will complain to mumsnet. No one has been abuse, trolling, rude. It may be a little heated in places, but that's a debate - or so i learnt from my school debating society. Do they have those in Steiner schools btw?

Also, what qual's do the kids come out with?

Binfullofmaggotsonthe45 it's useful to hear about the guidelines for schools in the rest of Europe, Waldorf and others.

Glad the link was interesting, the second post mentions mumsnet: www.dcscience.net/?p=3595

Orangeflower7 I think the confusion re Frome is that there are two entirely separate Free School bids from 'alternative' groups. The Frome Free School would be a democratic school, the Bruton/Frome Steiner bid proposes a Steiner Waldorf Free School. They would be competing for many of the same families, I expect, although the two philosophies are very different. I don't know anything about the Community College in Frome but someone who does may want to comment on local attitudes to these Free School bids, if locals know anything about them - they might not be aware of either.

Sorry, I was tired when I wrote that and frustrated that the same argument was being reeled out without qualification. Uncalled for so accept my apologies, I am trying to describe to you what it's like to be a practitioner from the 'inside' who is not so defensive of the methods and beliefs that I can't take criticism, I got the impression that Cote' and Barking have a very different agenda and weren't willing to listen. Apologies to Cote' and Barking if I have misjudged you both...

Just feel this Cult argument is a bit off the mark, I don't know of anyone who's been forced to remain within the Steiner community or 'Christian Community' and not allowed out... and this is how I think of a Cult, that it's a different way of thinking and describing the world (and the spiritual world) which is a minority view I cannot deny or that there are some fairly cliquey attitudes within the movement along with the hippy dippy types and the wishy washy floaty ones. Like any interest group, there are those who think they're more 'Steiner Purist' or whatever than others and grasp onto their beliefs looking down their noses at the 'uninitiated'. Personally I think this is bollocks, has nothing to do with the Kindergarten that I run or anything that I have been taught.

I do find Steiner's lectures difficult, not because I'm stupid but because they are very dated, poorly translated, difficult reading. There are very dodgy bits in places (certainly about race - though I have not delved deeply into this as I find any racism offensive having two dual heritage children and do not agree with any 'superiority of race' theories whatsoever). Maybe I shouldn't pick and choose which bits I like and which I don't and shouldn't ignore those that don't fit comfortably with my sensibilities, but I think anyone who holds religious beliefs does this to some extent, a suspension of disbelief is required don't you think? Faith by it's definition requires this.

But back to the in's and out's of Education:

I'm sure as I continue my studies I will discover aspects of Steiner's teachings unpalatable, but as I have said before, at the moment it is a 'best fit' because it offers a level of spirituality in it's holistic view that I find a very important aspect that simply isn't incorporated in any other teaching model. I also think the cognitive, emotional, physical areas of early years education need equal emphasis and I find that this is perfectly mirrored in the 'thinking, feeling, willing' focus of SW early years.

Can I just say to anyone who is taking umbrage to my constant 'I' statements, I don't know of any other way to get across that though I am a Steiner Waldorf trained Kindergarten teacher, I am not speaking on behalf of the movement, but on behalf of myself, I consider my views to be different from those held by some within the teaching community and that what I think and practice has to be justified in my head in ways other than 'because Steiner said so'.

Orangeflower, the schooling is Wales is much more play centred I understand, my nephew has been flexi-schooling there for the last year and a half and though he's a bit of a 'feral' one has a wonderful time and loves it

It's really nice to be on a thread where there is a decent discussion about Steiner at last. I'm glad you keep coming back Wabbit, there have been so many Steiner loons on previous threads that pop up and are a bit woo and don't attempt to answer the questions in the way that you have.

That said, I still wouldn't choose Steiner for my child. I'd get excited about Montessori if I could afford to even contemplate it though.

Wabbit you say:

'Personally I think this is bollocks, has nothing to do with the Kindergarten that I run or anything that I have been taught.'

It may well be bollocks, but if anthroposophy has nothing to do with the kindergarten you're running in what sense are you a Steiner Waldorf kindergarten teacher? Is your kindergarten affiliated to the Steiner Waldorf Schools Fellowship? If so, they might be a little concerned at your lack of understanding of anthroposophy and disdain for Rudolf Steiner.

And it's simply not true that this 'bollocks' forms no part of Steiner teacher training courses. How much are you prepared to overlook, ignore, not read, not hear and not acknowledge for the sake of the vague and woolly concept of something 'spiritual'? And what is so lacking in our state (and private) schools that justifies ploughing on steadfastly (and almost proudly) NOT understanding the background to your own pedagogy, although without that background the pedagogy makes very little sense? Because you know (and you do know, don't you?) that if you did face it you'd have to admit there's something really nasty in the Steiner woodshed.

You owe it to yourself and the families who have allowed you to take responsibility for their dcs, to understand what anthroposophy is.

...those who think they're more 'Steiner Purist' or whatever than others and grasp onto their beliefs looking down their noses at the 'uninitiated'. Personally I think this is bollocks, has nothing to do with the Kindergarten that I run or anything that I have been taught.

I don't have time for cliquey, Steiner Purist attitudes, I think they're bollocks - is that a little clearer? Am I wrong for thinking this?

Interpretations of any teaching methodology are subjective - I will continue to 'plough on' until I find the nasty thing in the Steiner woodshed, I have met some very lovely anthroposophists and joined their study groups - as yet I've not encountered the nastiness myself, apart from a little interrogative questioning at an early years meeting because I am a relative newcomer and I have a different outlook.

My setting is registered with SWSF as an 'interest group' only as we have not yet decided whether or not to become a charitable organisation or to make our project a business (shock horror ). SWSF will only register those schools/kindergartens that are registered as charities.

I have frequent visits from a SWSF advisor and a second SWSF advisor is my practitioner mentor. They have no concerns that they have raised with me that my setting is not 'Steiner enough' and anyway, I think that's what I'm trying to get away from.

I do take my responsibilities very seriously and continue with my professional development in as many aspects as is possible... for one person. What more I can do other than join discussions such as this, read Steiner and SW education related books, continue my studies and keep my eyes open for that nasty thing in the woodshed!

thing is, it is not a teaching method, at least not really...

Wabbit if you are trying to get away from Rudolf Steiner, why are you running a Steiner kindergarten?

I am neither shocked or horrified however many icons you flash at me. It would be difficult to shock me, Wabbit, as far as Steiner ed goes.

mouseymouse that's true, and intriguing...

You make it sound so easy mousy!

Wabbit, could you explain what you mean by: 'cull of synapses, maturation of organs etc', and what relationship these terms have to school readiness and Steiner pedagogy? Links to the research papers you or your sources are referring to would be useful.

But Wabbit, it is not a 'teaching methodology' in the sense that Montessori is for instance. The ethos, the methods, the materials, the activities -- all are what is being taught, not a means to another end. The 'three Rs' are not central in steiner schools. What is central is the anthroposophical/spiritual development of the child towards reincarnation, the soul work.

Steiner-Waldorf schools have been turned down for state financing in the US, on the basis that they are religious schools and are therefore not eligible for public financing/support. The antipathy is mutual -- ''It is our belief that Waldorf methods can be applied in many different classroom settings. However, Waldorf education is only possible if its practitioners and administrators are free to work out of a clear recognition of and commitment to the development of the spiritual nature of the human being." (Association of Waldorf Schools of North America statement on public school status. Waldorf = Steiner in the US). A clear statement that the spiritual aspect of steiner is paramount, imo.

No, restless, I'm trying to inform myself - to demystify (if I can) and take the 'woo' factor out of Steiner Waldorf ed. For me, and for the parents of the children in the group.

I want to get away from the 'I'm more evolved', 'I know more than you do' snobbery that I get the impression exists in some communities (though as i have said, I've not encountered this). Who and how are we to judge???

When I find that I cannot make sense of, or I cannot agree with more than I do agree with - then will be the time for me to reassess my viewpoint and stop practising under the name of Steiner Waldorf inspired Kindergarten...

I'm not trying to shock you restless, the Steiner community are not known to be supporters of profit making organisations, though a Kindergarten is far from that IME! Profit making is all a bit material perhaps.

How is it not a method?

Wabbit you can't tell me what you meant because you don't know, how could you know? They're sciencey sounding words, but they don't mean anything.

'When I find that I cannot make sense of, or I cannot agree with more than I do agree with - then will be the time for me to reassess my viewpoint and stop practising under the name of Steiner Waldorf inspired Kindergarten...'

But you don't know anything about Steiner ed: you don't understand the pedagogy, you didn't read the texts, you don't like the philosophy... you are right here and now not making sense of anything. You are in the dark. Do you want to stay there?

mathanxiety, yes and yes and yes.

CoteDAzur wrote yesterday, Fri 17-Jun-11 11:19:20

"Here is the French government's June 1999 report on cults ('sects' in French)."

The one responsible for the report, Jacques Guyard was sued for libel, and foud guilty by the Justice Court of Paris

Wikipedia reports on the subject:

"On March 21, 2000, the Justice Court of Paris found Jacques Guyard guilty of defamation for having called Anthroposophy a secte ("cult") practicing "mental manipulation". He was fined FF 20,000 and ordered to pay FF 90,000 to the anthroposophical Federation of Steiner schools. The Court stated that "the investigation [of that parliamentary report] was not serious. It is proved that it only considered affidavits by alleged 'victims' of Anthroposophy but that neither the authors of these affidavits nor the alleged perpetrators were heard by the [parliamentary] commission". The Paris judges also decided to strip Guyard of his parliamentary immunity in connection with this case. (Le Monde March 23, 2000)"

Tizian are you here in your paid capacity?

This gives a sample of a dedicated Steiner teacher's approach (sadly she seems to have died). For this particular teacher, Steiner teaching was a spiritual journey first and foremost. Interesting to see her comment on skin colour and what a child may be expressing through this (I think p. 18 in the pdf).

How the methods and the philosophy are enmeshed -- scroll down to p. 4 for education, but the initial pages on background are instructive.
Quote -- "Rudolf Steiner?s concept of education has neither an ethical-philosophical foundation (as was the case with Kant and Herbart) nor a socio-cultural dimension (as in Durkheim and Dewey) and also no empirical psychological origin (as in Claparède and Montessori). It is deduced from anthroposophical neomythology and has a metaphoric character. In the light of his interpretation of the microcosm, education takes the form of growth and metamorphosis?the educator is a gardener and a person who moulds others. From a belief in reincarnation stems the image of education as an aid to incarnation and spiritual awakening?the educator becomes a priest and a leader of people?s souls.."

Introducing Tizian and the Swedish Steiner Waldorf Federation

I understand the victims of Anthroposophy that the court case mentions were too frightened to come forward. Why would that be Tizian?

Pointless quoting wikipedia...the details have been thoroughly "cleansed".

@TheRealMBJ

No, spare time.

And @Binfullofmaggotsonthe45, actually the quote very much is from and describes an article in Le Monde March 23, 2000 on the case.

For the US Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices report on the case, see here.

I went to a Steiner playgroup, it was exactly the same as in the OP. One day my toddler insisted on bringing along her own brightly coloured PLASTIC pram. It was immediately fought over by all the other children there who wouldn't play with any of the wooden toys.
What freaked me out was they made bread for us to eat every week and as our lumps of dough sat in front of us a woman would come round with a bowl of flour sprinkling it over the dough singing " flour shower'

The Steiner group hold a yearly 'community' craft thing, where they sell extortionately priced heaps of junk. The older children are left to their own devices all day and I have never seen such an unruly bunch of hooligans. They try to start fights with the village children and spend their time terrorising the ducks on the village pond and seeing how many trees they can destroy. So much for being in touch with nature.
Whenever I have have seen these older children from the Steiner group at play parks they are really aggressive with other children, always and their mothers look on with a benevolent smile saying such tripe as " oh 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 year old boys have such a rush of testosterone don't they?"
"eh no, they are ill disciplined sods actually"
What a load of lazy arsed bollocks it is.

Being nosy keen to find out all about Steiner, I looked at our local Steiner school's website. It all sounded lovely - emphasis on three R's, Geography of British Isles, Ancient history, art , music. But in the pictures the children are sat at individual wooden desks facing a teacher ata blackboard who appears to be conjugating verbs. When I walk into DD's state primary, the children are sat together at tables and there is no blackboard.

It looks ...dull. This isn't how I imagined a Steiner education. It looks very d fashioned, traditional, even.