Failed our steiner toddler group

[Orangeflower7]

I was looking for a smaller more relaxed kind of toddler group for my ds (2.5). Got a bit fed up with the big busy groups lots of ride ons etc..so tried the steiner group. Just met one of the mums from it today who is 'sad it didn't work out for me' and am feeling a bit of a failure.

I'll explain a bit. It went on for ages and we all had to sit round the table and make a woolen spider which to be honest the children were to young to do- ds got frustrated and threw it away. It seemed that it was for the mums really, (craft) I found it stressful as I had to help make the activity so much whereas ds wanted to go play, and there was no choice of activity, all the mums were sat doing the craft activity so the children who were playing didn't have much input really.

The routine was like this (over 2 hrs) Craft-then (adults make snack which children couldn't eat just yet) -singing-then wash hands (line up) then-sit up and eat snack- then story.

I just found it too much direction and sitting down stuff for a 2 year old..although the (mostly little girls) other children seemed very obedient

It is a shame as it would have been a nice change...didn't find it very child centred though. Please tell me it's not just my ds is it, I do know a little about early years and the emphasis is a lot on play, (adult led and child initiated, choice and independence, how does that sit then with steiner?

So back to the big groups we go.

We have some friends who are very into Steiner, I mean really, really into it. When DS1 was 7 they gave him 'The Seven Year Old's Wonder Book' which I think you are encouraged to read to your seven-year old child in the Steiner system. It was stomach-churningly mimsy, but what really got me was the underlying attitudes. A child with a disability was called 'a cripple' and seen as pitiable. At the end of the book there's a magical journey which the heroine makes with another child. This child is clever and likes books and as a result he is too heavy with sin to fly properly so he ends up falling into a black bog (or something like that, can't remember all the details), while the other child flies up towards the spririts. It's the 'cripple' bit I can't forgive -- apart from anything else, because DS1 has a disability.

While I'm here, I wanted to pick up on something another poster said, about how they felt that the approach to drawing was too prescriptive and stifled 'self-expression'. Though I'm a long way from being an advocate of Steiner education, I actually disagree with this particular idea.

At my school, we drew, painted and crafted all the flipping time . We were actively encouraged to illustrate and embellish pretty much all schoolwork barring maths and grammar stuff with colour, illustrations and so on; painting, music and crafts were part of the curriculum all the way through whether you were sitting exams in them or not.

Though getting all kids to draw the same thing might seem a bit controlling, I'd connect it less to being prescriptive than to the neoclassical idea of imitatio . In this approach (practiced by Michelangelo's Renaissance sculpture workshop among countless others) students of an artistic form imitate works created by masters of the art, until they've learned the skills they need to create their own. A violin teacher would hardly be described as 'stifling self-expression' if they encouraged a pupil to follow the sheet of music and hold the instrument properly; IMO if you take a longer view, the practice of being a bit prescriptive about drawing/painting etc subjects is more about giving kids confidence and skills so they can go on to express themselves in a more satisfying way, with greater mastery of their chosen medium.

I know I'm getting a bit off-topic, but I read an article recently about how the curators of the Royal Academy summer show are saying that painting and drawing skills are in decline, with the result that the amateur submissions they receive for the Summer Show are getting steadily poorer. I'd connect this with a privileging of 'self-expression' over technical skill in contemporary attitudes to the creative arts. There are some artistic skills that you just need to practice, lots and lots, before you master them - and imitation is a tried and tested way of practicing.

A disproportionate number of A level students at my Steiner school went on to do art and design degrees; one of the kids in my brother's class is now a jeweller whose work is regularly featured in Vogue. Whatever other gripes you may have about Steiner - and believe me, I have plenty of first-hand gripes - I don't think you can accuse Steiner schools of not nurturing their pupils' creativity and artistic skills.

The Parent & Child group at our local Steiner is nothing like the OP's experience. The children play freely with whatever toys they want, and if they want to join in with the crafts they can. The dolls even have faces (just to stomp on another myth). The 'blessing' that is said is "Thank you for our little meal", no Earth Goddesses mentioned, and the singing session at the end is a few minutes long, about four or five different nursery rhymes such as Hickory Dickory Dock, or Ring-a-Ring-o-Roses.

Having googled some of the steiner criticisms I have found a lot of the weirder schools seem to be in the USA, 'nuff said.

No! not in the sense that I believe everything that Steiner ever said - his lectures are notoriously poorly translated and he waffled on and on in the most unintelligible meandering fashion so constantly contradicted himself. His ideas are based on the theosophist movement at the turn of the century with Goethe as his scientific benchmark?!?

Even I, quite a sceptic can't deny that he was a prolific thinker and worker - and I admire that.

But, a 'Spiritual Science' was what he was hoping to develop - and I think this is an untenable intention.

Having said that, I was brought up catholic and have not been able to shake the sense that there is more to life than just being here... and then not!!

I do believe reincarnation is a possibility - It seems to fit into my idea of an eternal spirit.

My moral foundations I guess are quite catholic, but I have come to think of them in terms of striving for 'the good, the beautiful and the true'. So art and music and dance and all the creative forms are part of our human and spiritual development as is any striving for excellence, be it sport, science, carpentry, architecture or anything.

othehugemanatee Thanks for sharing. One thing that struck me when choosing DD's school was at an open day, when one of the older children, gifted in jewellery making, said, very sensibly, that though he would love to do it full-time, he knew that it would be hard to make a go of it professionally and so he was hoping to train to be a car designer and keep the metalworking as a hobby. I liked his sensible attitude and also that the school hadn't squashed his natural talents either.

Arf at 'stomach-churningly mimsy'

From a publisher's listing about the Seven-year-old's Wonder Book:

Meet Sister-in-the-Bushes, the Black Imp, the Lordly Cock, Hugin and the Turnip, Rufusi Ryneker, and many others.

Agree with Himalaya about how Steinerites should be more upfront about the belief system though. It relates to what I was saying about the catsbumfaced fundies who tend to lurk anywhere where there's a large concentration of Steinerish activity.

OTheHugeManatee -do you think the keeping-quiet-about-what-its-all-about thing is an active strategy? One thing I've learnt about Steiner Schools is how similar they are - how stuff that just looks random like what colour to paint the walls is actually quite strongly controlled - like a McDonald's franchise.

So I tend to think not being straight with parents is part of the philosophy, not just an oversight. Am i right?

I don't really understand why though - they are not actively recruiting for all comers in the way that the Christian Fundamentalists who come to my son's school and run 'lunchtime fun sessions' are. In fact they seem to size you up as to whether you are the right kind of person and then either let you into the clique or give you the cold shoulder.

Himalaya I don't think it's calculated, as in 'let's lure them in with pretty pictures and lots of playtime, then indoctrinate the fuck out of them'. It might simply be that people who are very steinerified are just so used to it that they don't think to mention stuff which is just taken for granted to them. Or - and I think this is most likely - it might be a kind of coyness born of knowing (whether you'll admit it or not) that some of the really steinery ideas are pretty out there.

IIRC from my own Steiner education, there was a kind of gentleman's agreement that active proseletysing wasn't really on. At no point were we all sat down for Steiner catechism, and taught that there's an astral, etheric and spiritual body and that we all reincarnate etc. There would be times when someone would say 'Why do we do XXX like this, most schools don't do this, it's a bit bonkers isn't it?' to which the teacher would tend to give a bland answer, or sometimes say 'Most people think X, but in a certain sort of way Y is also true'. In that sentence, 'in a certain sort of way' is shorthand for 'according to the Steiner stuff I believe in absolutely but can't be arsed to argue about with a 12-year-old'. So from my recollections of how Anthroposophy related to my day-to-day school life (pervasive in informing practice, but discussed obliquely if at all) I'd conclude that your average devoted steinerite is aware that their belief system sounds pretty to outsiders, and so generally doesn't bother mentioning it because they don't want people to think they're nuts simply can't be arsed to argue the toss.

Dunno if that sheds any light for you

I really agree with that Manatee. Our really, really, really Steiner friends don't talk about it that much, and certainly don't proselytise. I know, for example, that one of their children is made to drink decoctions of tin because the Anthrosophical doctor says that the remedy for his skin condition, and that their elder daughter hasn't been taught any numbers at all yet (at age four). They have seasonal tables at home and when there aren't visitors there I imagine they do a lot more Steiner-type stuff at home (songs, rituals and so forth). But I think you are right that they do know that all this stuff is actually very out there so even though it's very important to them they keep it a bit quiet.

Meant to add to my post but forgot -- I know this stuff (about the tin and the numbers I mean) because it was dropped casually in conversation but they don't sit down and give us the whole 'this is what I believe and why Steiner was an inspired spiritual leader' stuff.

Oh! you did all that copying and pasting for my benefit

CoteD'Azur - I said that I do not practice anything that could be seen to be cultish, congratulate me by all means for giving a shit about the children I care for and educate... but not for making it into some marginal European handbook listing Cults practicing within France... Why should I give a Flying???

I've already said the 'community' attracts some fairly blowsy oddballs, but I don't consider them dangerous... I consider individuals dangerous who do not question the education, therapies and remedies that they provide for their children or take themselves. In the UK, Anthroposophical doctors that are consulted on behalf of a school are also practising GPs.

Just wanted to say thank you to Wabbit and OhtheHugeManatee for some really interesting posts. This has been a really funny but thought provoking thread to read.

Manatee - I think you're right about why teachers and practitioners are not open about the spiritual aspects informing the education, it does sound off the wall when said out loud! But I also think many Early Years practitioners and possibly teachers within SW education do not know what they really believe. From what I gather there is a general wuzzyness about what Steiner's teachings are, what he really meant - you seem to have a fairly good grasp, better than some teachers I've spoken to... and lord, apart from Early Years (birth to seven) I have little more than a basic understanding of the theories that he devised. (lets face it, his lectures were prolific)

Even when you are being educated in the pedagogy there is very little teaching that links theory to practice - unless you find out for yourself.

I don't deliberately 'hide' the reasoning behind what I practice but sharing my beliefs is not really called for in my interactions with parents, they want to know if their children have been happy, have they eaten, slept etc. During parents evenings they want to be reassured that their children are developing within expected 'norms' and that I am aproaching my work with the individuality of their child in mind. I share with my parents the next stages in their child's development that I am looking to see, how this relates to nurturing a 'well balanced child'.

For what it's worth, I have had experience of a child who has found the Kindergarten just too different from home to relax and be happy in, I have always been honest with parents and given my best efforts to forming an explanation as to why I don't think their child is happy, and I have tried to find activities and play that help to give the child a sense of belonging to the Kindergarten.
I think parents need to be aware that education is not one size fits all - what is right for one child is not right for another.

wabbit, you are lovely. i'm so glad the Kindergarten is going well for you!

Wabbit - re "(Steiner schools) making it into some marginal European handbook listing Cults practicing within France... Why should I give a flying?"

French and Belgian government reports cult activity in their territory that talk about your Steiner schools as cults are not "marginal handbooks" . Of course you should care, as should everyone else under the illusion that those sing-song voiced & glazed-eyed teachers are "harmless".

I would be truly worried if I were part of an organization considered as a cult.

Wanted to add my own remarkably similar experience of failing steiner playgrop. Took my 2 year old ds, we had to make bread for a long time......he got bored and got down off his chair to investigate a goblin's tent set up in the corner...sat in there happily playing with some knitted goblins but i was told to get him out as he hadn't finished his bread and was distracting the other children.i said no....it was all silent for a while

later he was getting bored of the twigs and spotted a book on a high shelf...he always liked books even at that age...it was an old ragged copy of some kind of mythical tale. i got it down for him to look at and was sternly told to put it back immediately.

a very nervy first time mum arrived with a slightly tetchy baby, she explained she'd just woken him to get him out of the car and was greeted with horrified rebukes...'never wake a sleeping child...you must never never do that.... 'on and on until she started crying

at the end i was told it was my turn to make some bread with spelt flour and bring it to the next group..... i laughed out loud.....heavily pregnant and with a toddler i was struggling to ensure i had enough tesco's own in the house for toast and getting up and dressed and out in the morning was a bloody achievement.

i told them i'd never made bread in my life and wasn't going to start now...more silence... we went to the church hall to fight over tractors...all has been well since

it wasn't the twigs or the goblins or even the bread...it was the total disregard of who my child really was and what he was interested in and the weird patronising otherworldly inability to connect in any way with the parents unless they were totally on message

I will refrain from sighing.... oh, oh no... ahhhhhgh - feck there's just some folks as have a hobby horse and they just have to ride it...

re my post. I still hold by what I said above - I don't give a flying.

I think my practices are valid

I study other pedagogical methodologies so that I am not narrow minded

I ensure that my understanding of child development and psycological development is informed by the latest research in these fields.

I believe that the care and education that I provide is second to none.

I also think that any form of education needs revision, any practitioners have to be self questioning to be valid.

....

CoteD'Azur - The word cult pejoratively refers to a group whose beliefs or practices are considered abnormal or bizarre. The word originally denoted a system of ritual practices. (please note)The narrower, derogatory sense of the word is a product of the 20th century, especially since the 1980s, and is considered subjective. It is also a result of the anti-cult movement which uses the word in reference to groups seen as authoritarian, exploitative and that are believed to use dangerous rituals or mind control.

I assume, though I may be incorrect that you are using the word cult in the latter context - otherwise there's nothing to make a fuss about...

I do not practice anything that I cannot substantiate. Whether other kindergarten teachers, or the Steiner Waldorf Schools Foundation can justify what they teach or why they teach what they do is not my concern but in my experience, most practitioners I have met have been very lovely people, kind hearted and genuine, most of my tutors have had a very modernising attitude to SW early years practices and have actively encouraged students to question what we are doing in our classrooms and kindergartens.

The colleagues that I have encountered at university have mostly come from non-Steiner backgrounds but have been drawn to SW methods because they allow the child to develop at their own pace and allow for the huge differences in capabilities that we encounter in the children we are teaching.

Calling what I do part of a cult is erroneous. Calling the whole movement a cult is probably wrong too especially in the light of the above definition, though I do agree that some anthroposophists are exclusivist and elitist, just not the anthroposophists that I know, like and work with.

You'd make a good Daily Mail journo Cote'

Cote I think you'll find that once you're part of a cult it is impossible very difficult to see just how bizarre and exclusionary your belief system is.

X-post

'You'd make a good Daily Mail journo Cote'.

Lucky for you Wabbit, someone got there before you

bobbinogs - sounds awful, I would not take a child of mine somewhere that treated me or others in this way, your Parent and Child group leader wasn't 'on message' herself... I think the frequency of these negative experiences is very sad and reflects on the fact that PandC leaders do not have to be trained, and are not informing themselves.

Many groups are run by very well meaning people who are emulating something they have experienced and enjoyed, and even read about (the Parent and Child Group Handbook by Dot Male is the bible for P&C practitioners) but in emulating they seem to miss out the humanity that is needed to reach everyone as individuals... Leaders who cannot 'go with the flow' are frightened that something will burst their lovely 'Steiner bubble' of calmness.

Here's how it should go...

The intention is to create a warm and welcoming homelike environment in which parents and carers can step away from their hectic lifestyle - and balance it with something that nurtures our aesthetic appreciation and engages us with an archetypal activity... baking, weaving, sewing - all being archetypal activities in the home... this is supposed to be grounding, taking us away from the heady worries and concerns of our daily living leaving us open eyed to 'see' our child, not for the amount of sleepless nights, explosive nappies, money worries that he or she has suddenly encumbered us with but for his or her beauty, trust and devotion...

The best P&C group that I have visited was held in the home of a practitioner who had years and years of experience... the group met on a bright sunny day so everyone piled into the garden where the children could hooley around at will on the slide and the swing - one little boy of just under two would frequently migrate towards the kitchen where the washing machine was mid-cycle... I was helping out making the snack (something the parents were not expected to assist with) this little boy kept coming back with dad in pursuit and when in the kitchen he would start turning round and round, round and round... It took me ages to realise that he was being a washing machine! Just a lovely Parent and Child group - no expectations or demands, no catsbum faces, just parents and grandparents enjoying the children enjoying eachother.

Barking - well I never!

That does sound lovely Wabbit however, something that nurtures our aesthetic appreciation and engages us with an archetypal activity... baking, weaving, sewing - all being archetypal activities in the home... sounds like a the beginning of mumbo-jumbo to me...

Hi Wabbit just wanted to say thanks for giving a perspective on things- I mentioned I worked/trained in early years, did primary teaching too...understand what you mean about people being experienced and learning from teaching approaches like steiner, reggio, montessori. I once did a project based on reggio which was great but think if might have been easy to get too 'extreme'. For example, an artist working with the children started saying she didn't think we should have any writing as this may take away from the other 'languages' (as in 'hundred languages of children)- her approach was quite full on and it became difficult for the teachers working alongside. You can be inspired by aspects of an approach rather than following something like a method, and with experience make your own approach based on experience. Sounds like where you are coming from. Whereas some odd types take a different approach and get all weird about eg joining in, the structure/routine, food and so on. Makes me wonder, actually about those traits, quite controlling aren't they? Forgot to mention we have also tried two other Steiner playgroups in the last 6 yrs. One was parent- run and a bit more relaxed. They had different days though so could choose a group which suited a bit more and one was more relaxed than the others. It had an outdoor area with grass which is why we went (don't have a garden) and dc mainly pottered there with a bit of singing and a snack . There was one mum though who got a bit into bringing the same food each week though so we could sing this song about honey and that was a bit tricky. (as we had to take turns providing it)w The other group was really strange ~It shut soon after. All I remember is a woman playing the harp for ages while the children tried to be rounded up, oh and a docile vicar dad with a boy who ran round chasing the others, my ds started screaming badly and the boy had bitted him really badly, the dad just let him it was awful. Now that is behaviour which needs sorted out not daring to get down and play or read a book. However, back to Wabbit. Yes I appreciate about some good aspects coming from steiner like slowing down, singing, using simple / natural materials, rather than being overstimulating/fast, I guess that's why I wanted it to 'work' for us. It's a shame the other things seem to get in the way and spoil it. The other parent led group is too far from us now, plus the level of participation / commitment required is too much now ds1 is at school.

bitten not 'bitted'