what are the reasons for NO smacking?

[hermykne]

I AM CURIOUS to know, folling the other thread, as my dd is so bold at the moment nothing gets thru to her, even putting her in a time out room for 2/3mins, shes 3. she will keep on screaming and then hit something or push something over.
can last 40mins and no matter how you go over the matter with her when shes calm, she doesnt seem to learn anything,
and i suppose smacking will not make her understand either...
but what does smacking create or instill in behavourial patterns in yours opinions?

i ditto megandsoph exactly, also i couldn't physically hurt my child no matter how naughty he'd been.

Other forms of punishment have far greater and lasting effects like taking away something they want and making them understand what they are missing out on and why

Does everyone use punishments like smacking, taking toys etc on their kids? I tend to think that explaining why some behaviour is wrong works better in the long-term? I also have moments of despair where i have taken toys away, but generally speaking isn't this more like disciplining a dog or something? Using rewards and punishments? It doesn't actuallly teach your child fairness, kindness etc which is surely the ultimate aim?

Sometimes they don't want explanations, just clear guidelines. Young children really don't want the responsibility of having to get their heads around explanations.

Tamula, that's abusive in my book.
Fairymum, I don't really punish ds - sounds odd as I do get cross with him - I sometimes say, well then we can't go to the library if you don't help me get you dressed, or ask him to go to his room if I'm getting really angry (more to defuse the situation than anything), but I also think that teaching toddlers like puppy training is, on the whole a good thing. When ds was younger I did the ignore bad behaviuor and reward good thing. Plus the usual distraction etc. I think explanations and long winded lectures about morality are just too complex for small children and the lecture is really more for our benefit than theirs. It can also end up riling everyone up more as they simply dont' understand and cannot look contrite to order.
I agree with Spidermama on this point.

I agree re young kids and overexplaining - in theory; trouble is, my 23 month old behaves MUCH better if given an explanation, nine times out of ten. Eg - at a friend's toddler group yesterday, she tried to lift lid off goldfish tank. Told her no. She smiled and tried again, said 'no' again. Third time, I went over to her, made eye contact and explained that she wasn't allowed to do this, that if she did lift the lid the fish might get hurt. She agreed not to do it again, and didn't. (If she had, of course, I'd have set a boundary with consequences - ie removing her!) This kind of interaction happens all the time - is this me burdening her with responsibility? I hope not, but don't honestly have a clue! (sorry, no intention to hijack amazingly long thread......

Words of wisdom from Custardo as ever.

But what is it really to get their heads around? An explanation don't have to be lenghty. I know sometimes they are too angry and you have to wait until they calm down. I really want my children to understand why they are not supposed to do something. I don't want them to not do something just because they will then loose a toy. I think it's then all focused on them. It doesn't develop their empathy with others. I know it's more of an effort and perhaps you need a more long-term focus.

A work colleague lent me a book called "A child called It" by Dave Peltzer. I could only read the first chapter, it was horrific!!! He was abused by his mother and I am not talking a smack on the hand after being told twice!! It was harrowing and I cried my heart out!!!

Now that in my opinion is abuse

I think explaining the simple physical consequence of her action is entirely different to a big lecture about morality though. It's the 'you must be good and quiet now to help mummy, who is very tired and does a lot of things to help you and now you must be fair and be nice to her because fairness means....blah...blah...blah' that is pointless and actually unfair to a toddler IMO.

Thanks for clarifying what you meant, Aloha....yes, totally agree with that.

Absolutely agree about long morality lecture and putting your child on a guilt-trip. Just don't really see what they learn from having toy taken away either. I rather go for the "because I say so" explanation as I just find it more honest I think. Perhaps depends on the child. My children kick up a bit stink if I take a toy away which can last for hours. If I tell them to calm down and come back when ready, they normally do. I once tried the naughty step and was told to go and sit there myself instead so didn't try again....

agree aloha I dont think toddlers understand in that capacity.At that age IMO they see their needs as being foremost.
Plus the fact that coz mummy does, this, that and the other, I couldnt say that because really that is unconditional IMO as I am their mum end of.

when mine were toddlers I used to use a firm voice, ignore their tantrums and send them to bed for 10 minutes after all else failed and asked if they were going to stop crying, they could come down and be good. That worked for me.

As they were growing up i found there "weaknesses" ie most didnt like being grounded,one didnt like no pocket money,one didnt like no tv,all most didnt like sending to bed
so used this to my advantage as I knew which punishments would hurt them the most.

I also know the "long boring lectures" my dh meters out
(believe me they are long and boring)
work too as they get older.
I have given the odd clip across the earhole when things have been been bad but found that it does nothing.
but that is in my experience.

Take for example tonight ds1 was caught stealing in school
I marched him up to police station as a scare tactic, it has worked in 3 dd's before him
far better result than a smack IME and IMO.
He is also now grounded indefinitely.

I have tried the "or I'll take your toy away" sort of discipline before and ended up feeling rather foolish and low. Ds's reaction was complete confusion and disbelief - "But why, mummy? That will make me really sad, why will you do that?"

I agree the suggestions from FairyMum, Aloha and Spidermama are the best way to go. I find it hard to always follow this through in reality though.

am reposting this as i believe it got overlooked earlier:-

Here's good reasons not to smack:

when ds was between the ages of erm maybe 2 til roundabout 7 he was a little shit. never listened, never did as he was told, time out never worked, naughty step neither. made my blood boil to the point where i lost my temper loads of times and ended up hammering him so much that the next day he woke up with purple spot bruises on his face and marks round his neck where i had pulled him by the collar. did this maybe 3 times during these ages.

can't do it and won't do it now and he is a well adjusted lad of 12. is it due to me walloping him when he was little? would he have turned out this way if i had not smacked him like this?.

apologies for the name change, i am a regular but obviously this is not something i am proud of so hope others will understand why.

laligo i couldn't agree more about smacking on the bottom and sexual titilation. i found your first post v moving.

as i said in my first post, i'm not a perfect parent and i may smack one day. but i don't want to and don't intend to and hope that i don't. it's just wrong.

I feel so strongly about smacking. Above all else, hitting your child shows her that firstly, if someone does something you don't like it's okay to hit them, after all your child worships you and you are in the most important position of trust in her eyes, her teacher about life. Secondly, people say they don't smack hard enough to hurt but the simple act of lashing out physically causes emotional pain and is damaging to a child.
Also from the parent's point of view it is counterproductive, it might make you feel better for a second but then you must deal with the tears, making friends again etc and after a few years of smacking it means nothing to a child, I've seen it in my nephew's behaviour, he is a cheeky tear away and has been smacked since he was a year old, he does exactly as he pleases and smiles through the smacks then goes right back to reeking havoc. He has grown up having no respect for his mother and as smacking has always been her discipline of choice she has no where to go now it no longer has any effect.

frannyandzooey, noone can follow their ideal through all the time. We are only human. I don't think children want perfect parents who talk and act like a childcare manual all the time. They need to see that we can get angry and explode sometimes too. How will they learn to accept that they are only human too othwerwise?
I don't smack or shout or let my children take cold showers, but I encourage them to be physical when they are angry. I am all for a little bit of door slamming and I have toy hammers which they can hammer into the walls with full force as long as they want to.

FairyMum, will you be my Mummy please?

"He has grown up having no respect for his mother and as smacking has always been her discipline of choice she has no where to go now it no longer has any effect."

And therein lies the problem IMO - as with ANY form of punishment if it's overused, and used for the wrong reasons it loses it's impact. I don't believe any form of punishment can be used on it's own, it HAS to be used in conjunction with other ones, and with lots of praise and rewards for the good behaviour.

Being a toddler is a bit like waking up on mars with two ailens to teach you about this new life. You must learn all the rules and customs while dealing with your own feelings of awakening and excitment at all the newness. Sometimes you might get it wrong, or do something unacceptable at a bad moment or discover that what you thought was a toy acctually harms you, you are learning and testing out everything, including the ailens who look after you but how would you feel if your ailens explained nothing to you about your environment but just told you you were naughty when you experimented and gave you a whack?

I am not saying a toddler can't make you reach the end of your teather, frequantly, but this is your child. How could anyone hit their child?

I find it very interesting what Aloha says about loving her parents less because of smacking.

I sort of go along with that, in that I've never had a good relationship with my parents, and they always smacked me in that random, arbitrary and uncontrolled way in which most parents smack (not all). But I wonder whether it was actually the smacking itself which was the cause of me loving them a little less, or whether the smacking itself was just another symptom of an overall parenting deficit?

Lauras mum - do you sit your child on the naughty step, or take a toy away the 2nd they're every time they do something thats 'experimenting'???

No - I didn't think so -

And guess what - MOST parents that use smacking as a PART of their discipline (they also tend to take things away, use naughty step, time outs etc etc and lots of praise) also don't smack just for the hell of it - and that sort of comment makes me

If you read any of MN threads you'll find people get to the end of their tethers..they hit out because they are tired, frustrated, have no help, have a screaming child that doesn't ever stop, have nowhere to escape.

Of couse hitting is wrong, but we are all human, and, until we have kids we don't know how we will cope.

The smacking issue is generally more about the parent's coping mechanism, than the child's behaviour, which is why I would advocate less judgement and more parental support.

I'm sure (before I get attacked) you'll find many parents who lash out - are only doing what they know - who teaches us our parenting 'skills'?

QoQ - I'm not sure if nowadays, most parents do use smacking as part of a sanctions repertoire. I think most of them use it in anger, frustration and helplessless and without any knowledge of any other discipline techniques. I'm always amazed by looks of incomprehension whenever I mention the pasta jar, which seems to be pretty standard on Mumsnet.

I suspect that there are a few parents who use it judiciously as part of a range of options, and a few who use it at the end of their tether and later regret it; but I think that most use it as a default option in the absence of information about other techniques. I could be wrong, but I guess there's no way of knowing!

Sorry posts crossed with Unicorn - you've said what i was trying to!