Fucking hell!

[QuackQuackSqueak]

Having a bad morning and need a rant.

Why when you ask a 5yo to not jump on the bed as there are glasses of water on bedside cabinet and also light hangs low and is glass, would they say "no". Not really no I won't but more in a "no you're wrong" sort of voice. She does this all the time and I don't know where to go from there as it's not defiant exactly and it's not a question as to why it's dangerous which I could easily explain. I find it really weird and it drives me crazy. My DH has just resorted to "just do what you are told" or "just do what you are told when we say something is dangerous and we can talk about why afterwards". A year later though we still get that weird response. Not just about that but about lots of things.

Why when you tell said 5yo not to announce "I'm finished!" when they have had enough dinner or to repeat "I'm finished, I'm finished, I'm finished, I'm finished, I'm finished, I'm finished, I'm finished, I'm finished" until they get a response (usually angry by then), why would they keep doing it? Even when you explain at every meal time that it's because when they say "I'm finished" their little sibling stops eating too and little sibling doesn't eat enough at the moment. So you tell them not to do it and why every day or at least most days why would they keep doing it? Because they forget? That would seem likely as she really genuinely looks suprised when she gets told off (attention span of a knat!) Is it for attention? That would makes sense too as I don't think she gets as much one on one as she would like.

Sometimes I just don't get it! This parenting thing is so hard and she is such a tricky one!

Apologies - haven't read the whole thread (although saw Maryz had beat me to suggesting a code word for I'm finished but saw that was just one problem sorted) but it occurred to me that I was probably a lot like your DD when little. My parents still go on about answering 100 questions a day BUT they did find something which worked with regard to defiance (bouncing on bed/getting hurt etc) which started with me not wanting to wear a seatbelt - so they explained about government and laws (not sure how they did that for a 5 year old so no help there) and basically the concept that there was a higher authority than my parents (ie they were also being told what to do and they had to tell me) seemed to work to the extent that "Because the government said so" was the magic (and probably much overused phrase - not sure any legislation exists to help with finishing dinner!) phrase for me. Could this work? Get a scrapbook and cut out/paste pictures of houses of parliament etc and make it into a fun thing to learn about and why mummies and daddies have to do things they don't want to as well.

It sounds like you might need to build some in advance warnings into treats/nice things ie. we will make cakes later..if we have time....and then when she is moaning over dinner just keep saying oh dear look's like we're not going to have time to make cakes soon if there's any more moaning/dinner isn't finished properly.

Maryz It's not waffle at all. I can really relate to it. I worry that my dds confidence will be affected as you say your dcs has. I find myself going "yyeeeess!" as soon as she approaches me as I can see what's coming. How can it not affect her that her mum does that?! It's makes me so sad. As to her I must seem so uninterested and impatient with her.

The weird thing is that I often felt my parents didn't have time for me or interest. My mum was a SAHM but on medication so she was often on another planet and my dad just wanted to watch telly all the time and would tell me to be quite as he couldn't hear it, even if I was doing my homework and needed help. So I never did get homework help or anyone ever really talk to me or explain anything. I am sickened to think my dd might feel how I did. I think my family thought I was independent so was expected to sort myself out whereas my brother had everything done for him. Some bad things happened to me because of the lack of attention so I guess I felt ignored and unprotected because of it (anyway that's my life story!)

I got the book "when your kids push your buttons and what you can do about it" which is about why you react the way you do to your children and how it relates to your own upbringing and it's great! Think I'll read it again and also copy you with the forcing yourself to spend 15 mins a day doing something with them that they want to do. I often think to do that but never actually do.

I found at this age you often have to TELL children what to do, not ASK them.

so: "Get off the bed now, no jumping, get down please".

rather than: "Look honey, it really isn't a good idea to jump on the bed, is it? Could you stop doing that do you think?"

or: "we are going to school now" rather than "Shall we go to school now?"

etc. etc.

Regarding the eating. When she has finished, she can say so, but she will have to wait for her sibling to finish too, and then they can have desert together.So if she says she's finished, you tell her that is fine, and to wait for DB/s to finish too.

QQS - the other thing I've done is said 'I don't know, lets look it up on the internet shall we when we get home?' at 'one of those' questions. The one I particularly remember is 'can koalas swim?'. We got home and I put it in google and got some Utubes of koalas swimming (I didn't know that they could do that ). Similarly - when he asked (aged just 4!) how asprin worked - he knew it made the pain go away, but, why??? I decided to find out and explained it to him how he'd understand it when I had it clear in my mind.

I think the bossy playing is a difficult one - I know ds complains when one of his friends 'always' does x, or is 'always' y or 'always chooses the game' and I nearly always use that as a reminder to him that its nice to share the rules/ characters and suggest that he can always play with a different friend...

My own DCs weren't too bad, and I have always been pretty lax generally. HOWEVER, I was, for about 18 months, looking after the DCs of a friend who died. The little girl, who was 4/5 was incredibly challenging. She would just help herself to anything she wanted, was rude, stroppy, and constantly saying NO! there would be arm crossing, foot stamping and 'no I won't' ing! Given the circumstances, I initially tried bargaining, reasoning and talking about it. I soon found out that a swift 'yes you WILL' and a stern look, followed by physical removal from the situation worked by far the best. You need to build the boundaries first, then you can compromise to live within them.
Have you taught your DD that it's ok to ask/have an opinion, but when a grown up insists, she must do as she is told?
If my DCs didnt behave at the table, they weren't allowed to sit at it.

QQS I've not read this whole thread, but the bits I have, you could be talking about my DD. She's 4 and has verbal dyspraxia, so talking is a relatively new skill - we have previously just signed, I am incredibly proud of her for this. However, maybe I got used to the previous one-way comms because the situation now is so annoying but also dangerous at times.

Take this mornings example...DH and I working out in the living room, jumping around like loons with weights in our hands, she joins in but stands diagonally behind me, just in my blind spot where she could easily get hit by the weight in my hand. I tell her to move in front of me and explain that I don't want her to get hit. She launches into an essay-length speech about what could happen, what precautions she is taking and what her next actions ought to be. All the while I'm jumping around and she's not moving! In the end she had to be sent out of the room.
We had to sit her down after and explained that sometimes she need to turn her mouth off and her ears on. She said she understood and repeated the mantra all the way to school but I'm pretty sure things will be the same when she comes home!

It is worth noting, as someone has previously mentioned, DD has an IQ of an 8 yo (EP tested it as part of statementing process). I do think these very inquisitive (and possibly know-it-all) children are often very, very bright and getting brighter all the time through questioning everything that is presented to them.
In terms of the dinner situation, I would put her in charge. DS is 11 and was going through a similar stage (age 7/8) at the point that DD was 2/3 and not eating well. I showed him how important he was to his sister and got him to encourage her to finish her plate, set him up with a reward - we have gems in the jar - before meal time even started.

Sorry, I've rambled - wonder where DD gets it from! ;)

My DD (age 5) is much the same and I was very pleased to find out that her friend is exactly the same! I had her friend over without her mum and she too was a little monster - answering back, demanding things, complaining in an "are you stupid!" tone of voice if it wasn't quite what she wanted. When i think back to being at primary school I remember having to behave so well at school, that when I came home I wanted to throw my weight about a bit to let off steam. I am hoping this is all it is. Unfortunately I can't advise how to deal with it as I have no idea. I find myself saying dreadful things mostly like "I am not your servant", "if you don't tidy up that mess, your friend is not coming round". All very bad - hopefully it will pass.

You are overcompensating for what your own parents did, OP, quite understandably. You are giving her way too much information. She can't take it all in. She is looking for her boundaries, because you aren't making them clear enough to her.

Pick one or two things you want to change, focus on them, be strict on them and don't explain more than once, she'll get the idea and this phase (for it is a phase!) will pass. I am sure she isn't like this at school, because there her boundaries are clearer.

Also, warn her what the consequence will be in advance and stck to it. After a few goes (while she gets used to it and probably tantrums) there will be a lot less shouting. She won't break and you won't damage her - go on, be brave and firm, it will be better for all of you.

Such a lot of excellent and wonderfully funny stuff on this thread. Can't possibly remember who said what and shouldnt' be on here anyway, as ever, but...

'You have had your answer already' is great. Quack, this sounds like one for you (and me). I have to say I roared at Gingerbreadmangate and the 'Have you made your decision yet?'. DH often gives a time when something will happen which seems to work well.

my dd finds 'I don't know what do you think?' really annoying so I don't go there. I think she feels like she's being treated like a child, heaven forfend.

btw, I saw Mrs Lovely this morning. She was.... Lovely. She has clearly worked hard with dd and says she behaves really well at school now although she 'had quite a tussle with her' over who actually had authority over the class . Also trying to answer every question that was asked which she doesn't do anymore. She didn't really have any advice as such but it was useful in that I can say 'dd Mrs Lovely says you really know how to behave in a responsible and respectful way in class. What is it that you do there? You can behave like that at home too, can't you. That will make you feel really proud of yourself and i'll be proud of you too.

I like the sound of Stanley Polish something's book, Maryz. Enjoy reading your posts on the teenagers boards, too.

Also Quack, because your needs were badly unmet, you are probably overcompensating for DD so her expectations are that you are a constantly running tap which must be soooooo exhausting for you.

mistlethrush I will do the look it up when we get home thing! I have said it before but then when we get home she's onto something else.

Saggyoldclothcatpuss I can let her say she is finished though as then her younger sibling shouts that they are finished too and refuse to eat anymore. I do make them both sit at the table though until all are finished and we all have desert together. I'm quite strict about meal times really, well dinner anyway. Breakfast and lunch are eaten anywhere. I have tried to teach her that yes she can have an opinion etc. I think that is about respect really, I respect her opinion as I want her to have confidence in it and herself. It's the "but must do what she's told" bit that's tricky!

fearnelinen I've never heard of verbal dyspraxia before. What exactly is that? It must be amazing that she is talking now. I guess for her she'll want to do it as much as she can! I do show my dd how important and example she sets and she gets rewards and things which helps. It's mostly just remembering from one moment to the next. She seems to lack focus.

mum765 "I am not your servant", "if you don't tidy up that mess, your friend is not coming round". All very bad - I don't think that is that bad at all. I have freaked out before screaming "I'm not your slave!"

Amaretti The thing is that I'm not convinced it is a phase. She was always very sure what she did and didn't want and it's never changed. As a new born she screamed every time she was changed (ear bleeding screaming!) and as she got older would demand things, like if she was watching me make her some food she would scream (at weaning stage so very young) in her high chair in an angry way that seemed to say i wasn't being quick enough! It's like she was born very assertive!

Fearnelinen It is worth noting, as someone has previously mentioned, DD has an IQ of an 8 yo (EP tested it as part of statementing process). I do think these very inquisitive (and possibly know-it-all) children are often very, very bright and getting brighter all the time through questioning everything that is presented to them. - I wondered that too but I suppose all parents think their child is bright! She is also very artistic and very emotional and compasionate and has great verbal skills which have been mentioned by her old nursery as being unusual for her age. Her dad has an amazing brain that is like a sponge . . . mine is crap!

Just wanted to say thank you everyone for your ongoing help (don't stop!). I am really struggling here and always have been really since becoming a mum so this is a huge help.

I started off badly really as I was bereaved a few days before giving birth so started the whole mum journey whilst in a terrible state. I feel like it is going to affect me forever.

What a terrible start to being a parent you had, Quack, that is really sad.

Just thought of something that works here. It's vague and buys time. Unlike 'maybe' which dd doesn't like and I feel a bit contrary saying, I do a kind of Clint Eastwood thousand mile stare across the desert and say 'It's possible'. It means it's possible if you don't fuck it up and i think she knows that, but it has a hint of it's slightly out of my hands so we will need to work our hardest to make it so. Does that make any sense?

Quack Your description of your dd is so like mine that it is a bit unnerving!

My dd is also very bright, emotional , compassionate and has great verbal skills as you have described your dd.

She sees a play therapist for anxiety issues and the therapist who has a lot of experience told me she finds dd's verbal ability nothing short of astounding!!

I am proud of her but it can be challenging.

Dukes my dd is the same at school, she interrupts the teacher takes over her lessons tells her she is wrong [Blush].

teacher gives out a very emphasised cough.. ahhem ahhem little miss Hardy, who is the teacher? It is my turn to talk and you will listen, when I am finished it can be your turn to talk and then I will listen.

Aw quack I'm really sorry to hear that. But if she was born assertive, it means you have to be more so! For her own good. It really won't hurt her, quite the opposite. She NEEDS to know that you are the authority figure. Loving the thousand mile stare, btw!

Thanks Amaretti.

Just remembered, SecondComing was it you who'd managed to get dd to stop pissing on the baby's pram wheels? pmsl at that.

Oh, oh. And this being so flaming bright thing. If they're that capable, let's use it to get them to do things for themselves. If they say can I have x? (presuming they can) try saying 'go for it' and let them get it themselves.

And one more thing. That thing about the government decreeing.... I think it can work well to say 'the rule in this house is x'. ie 'The rule in this house is one glass of milk with dinner'. just a thought.

My dd was like this and I don't think I did put very clear boundaries in place . I found it exhausting to do so, so mostly didn't do it (not proud of that). I think I was a bit like you Quack in that I didn't want to bring her up in the same way that I had been brought up. I also found that we did get on better if we negotiated and that the "because I say so" type of parenting was a complete disaster : she hated me, I hated myself - we were all miserable. So I carried on negotiating because it seemed the best way to get through each day. It did get easier as she got older because the conversations made more sense! She was also much more likely to listen to reason, if you see what I mean. She would accept that if she asked me to do something and I said "no", that: "because you can do it yourself and I don't see why I should" or "because I'm too tired" were actually reasonable reasons! If it was "because it's dangerous" - that would normally require an explanation of what made it dangerous and how I had come to that conclusion and what could be done to mitigate the risks .

She was never badly behaved in company (or very rarely) but she only really liked to mix with older children or adults with whom she could have conversations. She was never afraid to speak up and would defend anyone she felt was being wronged. This sometimes got her into trouble.

Some teachers loved her, others found her very troublesome. It was generally accepted that she was a bit further along the autistic spectrum than most, though never officially diagnosed. She blossomed when she went to a specialist music school where she was surrounded by other very strong individuals who were happily accepted for the "characters" they were.

I have a ds, by the way, a few years older who cheerfully went through life in a laid back fashion, so dd came as quite a shock! All the obvious "I'm the parent, you're the child" discipline worked brilliantly with him.

I hope it will be of some comfort to you to know that she is now an assertive, clever, compassionate adult with whom I have a loving relationship - we are always happy to see one another. I still occasionally do the "anticipating" because she can still be moody and I still find myself trying not to put her in a mood! She has learned not to be moody with others though on the whole - possibly no thanks to me . She has many good friends who love her dearly and who turn to her in need. She finds life much easier as an adult because no-one looks at her as if she should be "seen and not heard". She still asks lots of questions!

Just want to go back to a question about anticipation. You need a plan for every anticipated event.

Anticipation means starting from the fact that your DD will have numerous questions about anything she notices (gingerbread men) and having your answers to Who When What Where Why How all prepared so that you can have a decision made and be ready to say '11.15' to the question When. It doesn't actually matter most of the time when exactly she has the snack. What matters is that you can drive undistracted. As far as you are concerned, part of being prepared for each day should mean having your answers to the questions you can anticipate ready. Most of them will take very little thought (just pick a time for the snack and then stick to it) but your priority should be clarity in yourself about your plan, and being willing to communicate it.

Also to refer to your observations that she seems to have an anxious look in her eyes when you are caught up in the questioning and frustration -- she is possibly quite anxious and really needs to have clear answers (when will we be having the gingerbread men?), or a clear pointer to where to get them herself or with your help (let's look that up because I think that's a great question and I would love to know the answer myself) or to have the question redirected back at her (to see if she can try to figure out an answer herself or to get at the emotions behind the question). She does sound very intelligent tbh.

This is a very thought-provoking thread. Following on from my earlier post and after much thought I would categorise the questioning as follows:

1. Repetative/Fixated questioning, e.g. why did x put y's stickers in the bin?
2. Genuine requests for information, e.g. how many letters does broccoli have in it?
3. Questioning out of habit
4. Provocative questions

1. I personally feel that my ds asks the same question over and over when he is upset about the topic. As I said it's not that your dd really wants you to answer the question, it's a code that tells you that she's upset that x put y's stickers in the bin and doesn't know how to talk to you about it and doesn't know how to stop being upset. I think that it's really important in this instance to be patient with yourself and find a way through rather than just saying 'stop asking me'. If we did that it would be like saying I don't want to help you deal with things that are upsetting you. One way would be simply to say 'I think you are upset that x happened'. Another thing to do would be to see an opening in her play and play with her about it.

1. I don't think that it's detrimental to say 'let's talk about that later' if it's just a request for information. A post above recommended looking it up on the internet which is a good one. Today I said 'Let's check the dictionary' and that really caught my ds's imagination and stopped the questions for a while and I think he appreciated the effort to solve the puzzle for him. Again I don't think that it would affect his personality hugely to get a bit fed up with these types of questions, but I try not to lose the cool and make time.

1. Sometimes my ds asks quesitons and doesn't even wait for the answer because he knows that he knows the answer!

1. I find it helpful to see these questions and provocative behaviour generally as a test. I think that they are trying to see how much they are accepted and loved. This is when I feel it's really important to do anything you can to be calm and loving so that they feel loved unconditionally. I also think that it is interesting to examine what presses our buttons and why. Here are some things that I do when my DS is trying to provoke an argument:

(a) Give a hug
(b) Change gear - do something physical if we've been engaged is something mental or vice versa
(c) Try to capture his imagination - he loves being told stories or writing menus when it's dinner time and asking all the teddies what they would like
(d) Offer food in a fun way because he might just be hungry - my ds enjoys being served tablet shaped food
(e) Allow him to boss me about if I feel that he hasn't had that much control over activities for a while
(f) Try to make him laugh
(g) Completed flip out if none of the above work!!

OP you mentioned that you are finding controlling play difficult. I really really recommend the book 'Playful Parenting'. The author explains very clearly why our children often need to control play with their parents and why this is important for their self-esteem. They often experience a lack of control elsewhere and this allows them to have the upper hand in play and it means that they don't try so hard to get it with us the rest of the time. He asked a question in the book 'What was happening for you when you were your DC's age? Could this be making it difficult for you to connect with your child through play?' For me it was that I had been bullied in nursery as a very young child and so being controlled by my DS brought me back there.

Btw I can see that you have very good instincts from your posts.

You are the professor again

Thank you very much Again (and everyone) for all the time and thought you have put into your post, and thanks for saying I have good instincts, doesn't usually feel like it but nice to know someone thinks so. I have just bought Playful Parenting (weirdly) but felt a bit overwelmed when I flicked through it. Will have to commit some time to reading that. I get what you mean about being bullied at nursery affecting how you play. I think for me I grew up in a house with a very difficult sibling who never stopped shouting and having huge anger outbursts and hurting me. My parents were very anxious people and really I felt like I never got a minutes peace. I didn't get any peace until I moved out . . . and then I had children!

Again, fantastic post.

Now to put it into practice!

I think when we haven't had an experience of great parenting ourselves what we probably feel is anxious about our own parenting rather than actually being bad at it.