Fucking hell!

[QuackQuackSqueak]

Having a bad morning and need a rant.

Why when you ask a 5yo to not jump on the bed as there are glasses of water on bedside cabinet and also light hangs low and is glass, would they say "no". Not really no I won't but more in a "no you're wrong" sort of voice. She does this all the time and I don't know where to go from there as it's not defiant exactly and it's not a question as to why it's dangerous which I could easily explain. I find it really weird and it drives me crazy. My DH has just resorted to "just do what you are told" or "just do what you are told when we say something is dangerous and we can talk about why afterwards". A year later though we still get that weird response. Not just about that but about lots of things.

Why when you tell said 5yo not to announce "I'm finished!" when they have had enough dinner or to repeat "I'm finished, I'm finished, I'm finished, I'm finished, I'm finished, I'm finished, I'm finished, I'm finished" until they get a response (usually angry by then), why would they keep doing it? Even when you explain at every meal time that it's because when they say "I'm finished" their little sibling stops eating too and little sibling doesn't eat enough at the moment. So you tell them not to do it and why every day or at least most days why would they keep doing it? Because they forget? That would seem likely as she really genuinely looks suprised when she gets told off (attention span of a knat!) Is it for attention? That would makes sense too as I don't think she gets as much one on one as she would like.

Sometimes I just don't get it! This parenting thing is so hard and she is such a tricky one!

Eugene - so what if she does? It's not like you've said he's something derogatory is it? If he wasn't naughty and there's another explanation I'm sure one of them will put her straight and either way - you can stop having to find another 20 plausible reasons for it!

babies - I rather assumed she'd tried that... it's the first line of defence isn't it

I like Maryz's and ChippingIn's advice.

Put your foot down. 'Because I said so' is a perfectly reasonable thing to say. you only play into the arguing thing if you feel you have to back up your orders with explanations. Your DH is right here. And a time out for that annoying No (every single time) might nip it in the bud.

I have consigned individual DCs to Outer Mongolia to eat dinner apart from everyone else when they developed annoying habits and it has worked. You need to make eating with the family a privilege that requires acceptable behaviour.

As for the constant moaning, complaining, asking, whining, etc -- masking tape. An exSIL surprised the bejapers out of one of her DCs one day while she was on the phone and the child interrupted for the 100,000th time. She motioned to the DC to come over, then placed a little tape over her mouth when she drew near. Non-verbal, didn't hurt the child, got the message across.

You probably have a very bright child on your hands. Can she read or find things out for herself? Can you direct her to a resource in the house when she has questions? How busy is she? At her age, she is old enough and smart enough to be roped in to help with dinner related chores (setting the table, clearing some items when dinner is finished) and other things that need doing around the house.

It's very important for a child who is bright and opinionated to have to learn things from someone else and take orders, to feel they answer to someone else, and to develop a sense of responsibility, competence and pride in their achievements. You need to move her along from the stage where you are the oracle when it comes to questions she has and the annoying background noise when she wants to do something to the stage where she becomes a useful part of the household.

"You need to move her along from the stage where you are the oracle when it comes to questions she has and the annoying background noise when she wants to do something to the stage where she becomes a useful part of the household"

she is doing for a reaction and she seems to be getting it every time.

However can I just also say 5 yr olds are annoying little shits who think they know it all. My dd is exactly the same.

the bed thing, if it is your bed I would say you are banned from my bed as you are not safe and dont listen. I did this to dd when she nose dived off the end of my bedsted after countless warnings do not ballance of it on your tummy you will hurt your self...ok mummy, I left the room...qu..bang crash scream.

As for the dinner, ignore it. say fine thank you well done get out of my sight you are excused go and play.

It's like having a big dog -- you train it or you regret it.

You can start on chores by making it something you do together that is almost fun, and praise the DC for effort, perseverance, etc. It takes twice as long to get it accomplished with 'help' and explanations as it would take to do it yourself, but it changes the dynamic eventually, and for the better.

The ideal window of opportunity for getting children to take responsibility around the house is between 8 and 11, but starting earlier is very possible.

Well dinner time today. No problem with the saying "I'm finished!" thing. Instead we had "can I have milk?" so I got her and sibling milk. Sat down to eat my dinner. She drank her milk straight down, eats a bit and then says "can I have more milk" so I said she would have to wait so she asks again a few seconds later but phrases the question differently to see if that would get a different response. My DH told her she would not get milk until she had eaten more dinner and not to ask again. So she carried on asking. I explained that's it's the only time I get to sit down and I don't want to be getting up and down to get different things she wants which is what often happens and has been happening since she was tiny.

So then there was some crying and face pulling (sad faces) which was annoying my DH. Then she was saying different things hurt which is what often happens when she has got in trouble. My DH told her to stop crying or she would lose something so she carried on and she lost watching the dvd she wanted to after dinner. Then more screaming as now she was upset about the dvd and was asking to watch it and she lost something else and she still carried on even though we had told her to just eat quietly and calm down. I then put her on the naughty step and told her to stay there until she could sit nicely at the table without wingeing and we left her there for 5 mins or so.

So this is what it is like a lot. It really is like she has no impulse control or something. She gets in so much trouble and loses all these things she likes but even with warnings of what will happen she still does it.

I know some people might think I'm mean for not getting the milk but I used to give in when she was a baby/toddler and it got ridiculous with me getting up to get different drinks and different beakers all the time. It all just seems really controlling to me. Not that I think she is deliberately trying to control us as such but it feels like she is tugging at my puppet strings.

I, for one, do not think you are mean for not getting her the milk.

I still say you need to sit her elsewhere for meals until she can behave herself. She doesn't lack impulse control, she's just being a little madam - she gets attention for her behaviour - exactly what she wants. Of course she's deliberately trying to control you - she's 5! It's your job to show her she can't and that YOU are the parent, YOU are in charge, not her. Kids need boundaries and will keep pushing until they get some. Make your life and hers easier, put some boundaries in place.

Sorry I haven't replied to messages.

One thing though, saw some suggestions about what to do re bed and dinner. . . it's not really those situations that is the problem but rather that they are the symptom. It's more like she just doesn't listen to us about anything. Like my message above at dinner where she wouldn't stop asking for milk even though I told her to. I honestly don't understand why she would carry on when she knows she's going to get into trouble? Like when she says "no" like what we have said doesn't matter or when I tell her not to say something and she says it anyway like she hasn't even heard! We get that a lot, like she is just not hearing us (no actual hearing problem).

So as I was typing last paragraph she asked me why we didn't make cakes this evening like I said we would. I explained that it was because dinner took too long with all the whinging plus my shopping was delivered early and so I was dealing with that. there is not time now as she has to get in the bath. So she started asking me again "but why did you say we were going to make cakes" so I told her that she had already asked that question and I had answered it and not to ask again, so then I get "but why can't we . . ." and I went mental!

Sorry for the ranting! Got to put kids to bed now!

Where does the phrase "never apologise, never explain" come from originally?. Although a bit rude in some situations it comes in handy with children of the "give them an inch and they take a mile" variety (also when sorting out bad service in shops and restaurants).

NO you're not mean about the milk. I agree 100% about the boundaries. She is challenging you.

You should make it clear that there are going to be specific consequences if she asks for milk again for instance. When she asked for more milk and you told her to wait a bit she took you literally and asked again. If you didn't want her to ask again or get her any more you should say 'This is all the milk I'm getting for you. Sip it slowly because I am not getting up again to gt you another drink of anything. You are not to ask again for anything during this meal and if you do the consequence will be X'.

Instead of answering the question 'Why no cake baking...?' just ignore it, nod, and ask her how she feels that she can't make the cake/watch the dvd, or ask the leading question - if she feels sad that she can't do whatever she was hoping for. Then after she answers (don't discuss her answer) point out that she ignored the warning about consequences and ask how she thinks she will behave in the future when she is told to do or not to do something.

When you answer her questions directly and explain things to her she is leading you and setting the agenda, drawing the obvious conclusion that you owe her some explanation for things you ask of her, and giving her the impression that your reasons may be judged and found wanting by her.

123 Magic might be the book for you. It requires a lot of parental commitment and you may feel you are on autopilot and quite harsh for a while but it is a method that helps parents lay very clear boundaries with their child(ren).

Simply say...You have been TOLD - if I have to tell you again you will go straight to bed Find your 'tone of voice' that brooks no nonsense.

Stop pandering to her. Take a firm line about all of this. Make your explanations SHORT... 'We are not making cakes now because you were naughty at dinner time' End of, don't start explaining about shopping and bath time....

My ds (5) is a bit like this too. He doesn't listen and thinks he knows if all!
Regarding the 'im finushed' thing I would deal with it by saying at start of meal 'ds, do you remember yesterday I was cross because you said I'm finished when you finished eating? Well today I Wang you to remember that we don't shout that out. Instead you sit nicely and wait when you are finished. If I hear you say I'm finished today I will take away your time on the wii tonight'
and after a day or two he gets it, the repetition of it and the sanction given starts to sink in.
Again with the milk, I'd say no once and when he asked again I'd tell him to stop asking and explain that seeing as I'd already said no then him keeping on asking is naughty and that if he asks again he will lose his wii time etc (common theme in our house!)
because he thinks he always knows best what does NOT work with ds is explaining I can't get your milk because I need to eat my dinner, can't be getting up and down all the time etc as he would see that as a green light to say 'but you can just get my milk anx then eat your dinner' or something. It only works to say 'i'm not getting more milk now. I will get more milk when I have finushed' eating. If you ask again before that then there will be no milk at sll'
gets rid of the opportunity for him to argue iyswim!
Same with cake making 'we didn't make cakes as you were too naughty at dinner time. If you are good af dinner tomorrow we will make cakes tomorrow' if arguments ensue then I wold say stop arguing or no cakes tomorrow!

Oh for fuck sake. I looked at this out of curiosity and now my life is mapped out in front of me.

I have a just turned 4 yr old and im seeing lots of signs of this creeping into our already exhausting day.

I was wondering over the last few days why he doesn't seem to listen anymore and has started arguing back where he just did it before.

After reading this im selling him and his little sister on ebay.

You are not mean for not getting the milk.

This could be my life with my nearly 7yo DD.

I want to use Dukes' letter!!

And some one asked "when will we sit back & laugh about it?" - I so hope my DD has a 6yo DD of her own one day............

There comes a point when they can get their own darn milk of course.

Quick - how old is the little one... I might be interested? May take them as a pair if that's the deal.

This is very common behaviour at this age (as you can see!) but does she do this at school? If not, she is clearly making a choice. Can you imagine what it would be like to have 30 DCs doing this all day? No good for anyone, and teachers that don't tolerate it are not evil and nasty. In fact, kids love strict teachers because, contrary to appearances, they like clear boundaries. Bearing that in mind, stop punishing yourself. By 'training' her out of this behaviour, you are doing a good thing. It is to her benefit. If you tell her to do something, she has to do it or face consequences (everything Math said). If she's asking life, the universe and everything questions, that's fine, guide her to answer them herself - 'what do you think DD? hmm, not quite right, here's a factoid, try again now you have that bit of info' type thing. As for bouncing, doing dangerous things etc, she must learn to make better decisions (lost count of how many times I said that to DS and kids in class) help her to assess the situation 'do you see that glass of water? what will happen if you bump into it? how can you avoid that?' etc. It's exhausting to begin with but it sets a new pattern, and you're already exhausted with no end in sight. And they do grow out of it, eventually!

Goodness- I think I must have typed the OP in my sleep or something! My 5yo is exactly like this, though she always has been.
She is completely macchiavellian with it, and can lie through her teeth without turning a hair, thankfully her impulse control is improving, and we have far fewer flashpoints.
I learnt the hard way that walking away and ignoring her behaviour was the way to deal with it.

Something that I wonder though . . . quite a few people seem to be saying that I am pandering by answering all the questions and giving explanations for why I won't get milk/bake cakes etc. I think I actually do this on purpose as I think she is entitled to proper answers and will help her understand things and life. Am I wrong?! (shit!)

My own parents never used to explain anything, they would just say no/maybe/because I said so/maybe tomorrow/we'll see etc. I found it so frustrating and still do actually as there are things that I can remember not being able to do and never understood why. I was never told anything, even like why I couldn't have certain toys out on certain days or play with particular friends. There may have been good reasons for it but I never had and still don't have a clue what they are.

So I decided when my dcs were tiny that I would always explain everything.

No- I think it's good to explain everything tbh- knowing why some things are is helpful to them.

chippingin she is 17 months and they do come as a pair - no point selling one only to be brow beaten in 2.5 years - will deliver????

After reading your last post quack, I see why you answer her as you want to give her answers but you are creating a vortex that will not end, well until some one gets seriously pissed off. You seem to be overly verbalising, Your dd probably switches off after possibly 5 words unless it is something she is going to gain from listening to. You gave her 2 explanations as to why she cant have milk, when she only needs 1, the fact its your only chance to sit down I agree dd needs to respect, but then you have already told her she cant have milk untill she eats more, I would leave out the other explanations, try this.

DD..can I have more milk (please)..I would not get it untill she says please, if she had not

You..no You must eat more dinner first

DD can I have more milk

You... no you cant Im going to give you a warning now, If you ask again or you make a fuss you will be leaving the table untill your father and I have finished, we are not going to put up with this disruptive behaviour!!.
HAVE YOU UNDERSTOOD WHAT I SAID

DD..YES

YOU..then tell me what I said

DD Repeats back her understanding.
continue this untill you are sure she is understnading

DD..can I have more milk

you, DD you are leaving the table now as you did not take your warning and stop asking for milk.

remove dd from the table, to another room, explain she stays here untill you and dp have finished your dinner.

keep enforcing this if she becomes disruptive.

I think your over verbalising and offering up to much in way of explination means your dd is not fully grasping what you are saying