Is this as unacceptable as I think it is?

[justlookatthatbooty]

Picking up my 2DC's from Nursery yesterday, getting their coats on, a 2 year old child threw up in the vicinity. Another not yet really talking child,maybe just about 2, waiting for his mother, curiously tottered over to take a look.
The only supervising adult present totally flipped and started yelling at the tottering child most agressively. It was totally over the top, he literally flipped out. It was shocking. The child wimpered and cried into the arms of another mother at which point the supervising adult (assistant of owner who had left early) pulled up a child's chair and slammed it down infront of the crying child and slapped the palm of his hand down on it with a massive smack and shouted with real rage "There, sit there, DON'T COME NEAR THE PUKE, GET AWAY".
It all unfolded in a really fast whirr of intimidation and I realised too late that I should have intervened and done something, but I didn't and there was much flurry with puke cleaning and crying children. I am absolutely cursing myself for not doing something... it just happenned so fast.
What to do now?

I talked it over with my partner and we decided I would talk to the owner at pick up time. So I checked that the kids were not alone with him there today and decided to talk to the owner of the nursery about it at pick up time but again she had left early.

I arrived to find my just turned 3 year old son had spent 5 hours sitting in his buggy (he was asleep when i brought him there and after some deliberation decided to let him sleep and let the owner help him out of his snow suit and buggy when he woke up).
He had peed himself and had spent god knows how long sitting in his buggy in his peed-in clothes.... he was still sitting there when i arrived to pick him up. I was aghast. He told me, he hadn't eaten anything and when i confronted the angry assistant from yesterday about it, he said that DS hadn't wanted to get out so they left him there. I appreciate that no-one applied physical force to him, but if there were not able to co-erce him out with raisins and nice things and cuddles and whatever, then surely they can't have been trying hard enough and surely they should have phoned me? Or am I overreacting? What's normal here? Help!
I feel like I can't trust 'angry man' after the outburst and am most upset to find that my son spent from 1030 til 3.00 (he did sleep til 1230) in his peed in clothes in the buggy in the lobby and no-one called me or checked if he had peed himself. No one called me to say he's been sitting there for more than 3 hours now, come and get him. Is my incredulous reaction unreasonable about either the angry episode or the whole day in the buggy?
I feel like immediately removing both children from the place and lodging a complaint. By the way, I'm not in the UK, but am very much in regulated territory when it comes to childcare. perspective anyone?
feeling most upset.

Wow, that's utterly disgraceful!

1. Remove your children from the setting immediately
2. Lodge a complaint with the nursery
3. Lodge a complaint with whoever the governing body is where you are

If it were me, you couldn't PAY me to take my children back there.

mamatomany - that's funny - I had a similar experience at a Leapfrog nursery with DS. He was on a chair (in the room, not outside) "until he said sorry" - I don't know how long he had already been there if it had not been for me intervening after 10 minutes (we had to go) and establishing that he was refusing to say sorry because he hadn't done whatever he was accused of (I believed him - over-developed sense of 'fair play' even at that age wouldn't have allowed him to lie to me) and eventually talking him into muttering 'sorry' anyway I don't know how long he would have been there.

We were about to move anyway - luckily.

Sorry to hear of your experience mamatomany
thanks for not getting at me!
it all looks so clear when written like this
but at the time...

thanks for input
this is really helpful

but i am sobbing my eyes out

gush

What country is this in? I am intrigued!

Netherlands. I have a meeting now with the owner, trying to calm my emotions and order the facts in Dutch.

I've just sat open mouthed while reading your post, I'm absolutely disgusted at the way your son and the other child have been treated and i would definately remove him. I'm also shocked that some people have said that they don't find the man shouting at the young child that unacceptable and have said he may have been under pressure. IMO it doesn't matter how under pressure he was feeling or what was going on at home etc etc, there is no excuse for the way he treated that poor child and he should leave his personal problems at the nursery door, you wouldn't do it in an adult work environment so why do it to children?

Also the fact that there seems to only be 2 members of staff at the nursery and one leaves early would also set off alarm bells, as the ratio of adult to child sounds worrying low by UK standards (like you i live abroad so can't rememeber the exact figures).

And as for leaving your son in his buggy for 5 hours well, i agree with all the comments the other pp's have made. He may well have been too worried to let the staff know that he'd wet himself if that was the way they'd reacted to that child being sick.

I hope your meeting goes well with the nursery owner but i think i would still take it higher if there is a governing body in the Netherlands. Keep us posted.

I was reading through this thread wondering if it was Netherlands.

That is awful. I work in a nursery and there is no way I could condone any of that behaviour.

Interesting - what made you think that, alligator?

Used to live there. I noticed a lot of differences from Britain - reminded me in a way of how it used to be in Britain, not so bound by protocol etc. I actually quite liked the differences, but I can see potential problems. There is definitely a strong culture of children making their own decisions and taking responsibility from a young age.

In the Netherlands they raise their dc to "be free" it's an interesting concept!

I was at uni but knew some christian families through the independent church we went to - they explained how wierd they were seen because they "disciplined" their dc - ie gave them boundaries "If you are playing out you must ask me before going to someones house" and then shock horror "punished" their child - she had to play in the fenced garden for the day because she had disobeyed the above rule!!!

On the other hand their teenagers for the most part do go out to binge drink and don't sleep around and a very low teen pregnancy and abortion rate

Actually I found they did have boundaries, just different ones, not the same ones we would probably enforce in Britain. For example, I would regularly see small children of maybe 3 or 4 playing outside alone, not right next to the house but maybe at the nearest playground. I don't think you would see that much in Britain. However people would look out for the other kids, they didn't see them as "not my responsibility." Nice really.

Just sat and read the entire thread and i have to say im shocked and very saddened for you what if god forbid your child was poorly and that was the reason they were refusing food and didnt want to get out of the buggy (thankfully that wasnt the case) but surely a for a child to do that for 5 hours something isnt right

Also the fact he so willingly left you in charge of the children whilst he popped out is just shocking and then the vomit issue (i am too shocked he used the word puke and is meant to be a professional and an example in his place of work)

I would not be sending my child back there at all
I really hope you get it sorted as it does sound like they do not have a clue when it comes to groups of children and it does sound like a shambles xx xx

alligatorpurse I agree I think in general their attitude to children is better. Yes the children all played out at young ages, and riding 2 wheelers at 3 I wasn't sure if that was the norm though as I lived on a lower income pedestrianised housing estate so the risk from cars incidents was minimal.

i wonder why he didn't want to get out of his buggy? why didn't he want to go play wth the toys? was he trying to stay safe out of the way? does he want to be there?

report the place to ofsted or whatever you have.

non of it is normal.

thanks everyone for your imput....

So I went and talked to the owner, by appointment. We talked for two hours and she listened really well. She had her own feedback about the day that DC didn't want to move away from buggy or out of ski-suit. According to her, he did come with her to do a pee and he did come into the room(separated by a sliding door that is most usually open, and was open this time too) but just skated around the table where the kids were playing on the other side of the door and then went back to his buggy. he just kept saying that wanted to do the goodbye wave to mummy. So it certainly wasn't a severe neglect situation but I still feel that it's odd that they were not connecting enough to him, to convince him it would be good to come and play.
The owner was suitably HORRIFIED by my story of being alone with the children whilst the angry man went out for bread and horrified also by the angry episode.
Since I talked to her on Wednesday, I have not heard a peep from her, which I find strange. No update, nothing.
I want to bear in mind with all this that I have enjoyed a less protocol heavy approach in the Netherlands and have found the UK to be (justifiably) paranoid, and have previously been frustrated by Health and saftey in the UK.
I do feel taht somewhere in the middle is probably where I would like to be and see the children being cared from. Meaning that basics are being met/catered for.
Which in this case, with my DC, did not happen.
If I had heard back from the owner, with her intentions outlined by now, I would feel a lot better. I wanted to hear her story about the buggy day before I phoned the regulatory body, because I wasn't there and didn't therefore witness. Her version of events was undefensively different to what I had peiced together from my son's account and my imagination, which was fuelled by shock at the previous day's anger episode. I was certainly on ultra alert, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't be concerned...

So what I've got now, is having witnessed an angry and unprofessional episode from angry man when owner lady wasn't there and a not as bad but still a little strange story of the day when my DS wanted to wait by his buggy.
Your thoughts?

It's good she was shocked but not good enough I'm afraid. One incident could be investigated and managed but all these separate incidents point to shockingly bad management, and the lack of supervision of an incompetent member of staff,.

Just being pedantic, but unless it was an english speaking nursery, presumably he didn't actually use the word "puke"?

You poor thing, you don't sound like you've got any further really. I also think that the whole buggy scenario sounds very odd and although as you say it wasn't severe neglect but the fact that they were quite happy for him to just sit there on his own for 5 hours is still neglectful imo. Surely it would simply have taken a simple bit of distraction by them for eg including him in the group sing song or whatever for him to relax and go and join in, take his ski suit off. As nursery workers you would hope they're pretty well trained and experienced in dealing with this situation as i know my 2.5 & just turned 4 yr olds have been upset at me leaving them at nursery on many occasions and i have seen the staff immediately use some form of distraction and it does work!

I also live abroad, in the far east, and my DCs go to preschool in an international school and recently i've had a couple of issues with the school bus that they take and the chaperone on the bus not ensuring they're strapped in. The law on seat belts over here is very different but i still don't think that makes a difference when it comes to the safety of children and I've made complaints to the head of primary and have been very satisfied with the responses i've had. It's a shame that despite the length of time you were with the manager, that she wasn't able to allay your concerns.

Sorry for my waffle but i know what my response would be but whatever you decide I think you'll need to go with your gut feeling on this.

It is not acceptable and I actually found myself in a very smiliar situation. My DS2 has ASD but before he was diagnosed I just thought he was clingy. He used to feel safe in a buggy and would scream and cry the whole time he was out of it at nursery, unless he was outside. So instead of spending time outside or trying to calm him down they would stick him in a buggy and leave him there all morning. He wouldnt have eaten or be changed. I only found out after 6 weeks of him going twice a week when I realised I left my housekeys in his bag and he was still in this buggy, alone in a corner with a soaking nappy.

I was so upset I pulled him straight out and we have never been back. The Nursery Manager responded to my complaint accusing me of being standoffish and thats why DS never settled.

I still feel so upset when I think about it that I want to cry, so I know how you feel. The only consilation that both you and I have is that we didnt know it was happening, and as soon as we found out we acted.

I hope you feel a bit better soon.

:( Mario

DS started going to a nursery where they said he ate well, which we were amazed at because he didn't at home. For various reasons we moved him and then the new manager called me to say he wouldn't eat. She seemed a bit accusatory which annoyed me, but when I spoke to her further I realised she was actually upset - she said how awful it must be for him to have an empty stomach all day. That made me trust that they wuld be honest about how he had been

not puke but the exact same equivalent in Dutch. A colloquial word which is perhaps even worse than puke. actually it's not professional but if someone used that word and was together in in control and being really ' in their role" then I wouldn't really mind.

basically they are an 'anti policy'( my apostrophes) place and she is a rebel. she probably was the first nursery to exist in this city when she set the place up 35 years ago. So she's seen a lot change and finds the new policies and barrage of paperwork etc etc ridiculous and distracting from good old basic childcare and fun with the kids. In many ways she is obviously very good, absolutely unflappable and very experienced and absolutely not cruel but in her 'freedom' approach, as I said to her, she leaves holes for improper care to slip in from others or from being distracted herself when too busy with something else. The whole time I was meeting with her she expressed extreme regret and referred to it as her fault (angry man) because she had been so busy and distracted with the other branch that she's been busy setting up. she said she's obviously loaded too much on his shoulders and he's stressed out. she's obviously not in touch with him as she didn't seem to know anything about whether he really wants to be in the job etc etc. just gone on assuming everything is fine for 2 or 3 years, when he said in the beginnign that he only wanted to work there for one year.

I don't want to overreact and I don't want to deprive the kids of something that has been enjoyable and (could?) be again if the standards are met. But in this climate of a huge huge profile sex abuse case in nurseries (Robert M) of more than 80 children (by one man) and still counting, I don't feel like I can ignore or take lightly or give second chances when what I saw is a seriously dark side to a man caring for my kids. No compromises whatsoever in this very clear situation.

I just can't help feeling so upset...losing our adult connections there, losing the kids little friends. It feels sudden, shocking, awful and isolating.

And still I've heard nothing yet from the nursery....would you have expected to get a phone call pretty quickly after the meeting with some sort of update?

Sorry to read your story Mario. Really shocking.

thanks everyone

Fair enough, thought people were getting hung up on a random word but seems you picked it for a reason,
Seems like she's starting to see the point of the policies etc she scorns - they are to help assure quality of care and safeguard children and adults!
When he (or she, or you) is on his own looking after the children, what defence would he have if anyone accused him of anything?

I absolutely knew this would be in the Netherlands! We lived there when DS1 was 2.5 and moved back when he was 5 and DS2 was 2. I found the childcare absolutely SHIT! DS1 went to a day nursery (kinderopvang) for a while and it was awful. The ratios of children/adults is very different to here, there seemed to be little control over what the children did, there weren't many toys out, they weren't rotated, the children were fed bread and various spreads for lunch everyday, very little fruit and veg, and they put all the children in pyjamas at 11.30, fed them lunch and then expected them to nap until about 3.30. I looked at various other nursery settings and all of them seemed to follow the same pattern. It still makes my blood boil to think of some of the places I looked at.