How should older children behave in playgrounds?

[tigermoth]

As a parent of a 9 year old I am sometimes at odds with parents of younger children when I take my son to the playground. I take him to playgrounds because I have a 4 year old, otherwise by now we would be phasing this out. However, my son is still well within the playground age group, and given a bike or skateboard and the right play equipment, enjoys letting off stream.

One of his favourite things is to skateboard or cyle down low ramps. He is too small to go to teenage skateboard parks yet. Half pipes frighten him and he is not good enough to do all the manoeuvres. If there isn't a sign to say 'no bikes or skateboards in the playground' I am happy to let him cycle or skate down small ramps (especially if I notice other childern are doing it too). I expect him to take turns with whoever is there, toddlers or children, or stop if the ramp is very busy. He is usually OK about this, and I am there to keep an eye on things. But I don't see why I should tell him he can't do this at all. This is where conflict happens.

Parents of tiny toddlers (under 2's) using the ramp do not want a big boy careering down it on wheels. If I sense danger or disapproval, I will ask my son to let the toddler have a go, but I will not tell him off for doing what he is doing. A couple of times recently I have sensed disapproving looks and heard comments like 'he's too big to be on here, he shouldn't be riding his bike in the first place' I studiously ignore this.

I think my son has as much a right if not more, than a small toddler to play on general play equipment. He is totally within the age range, and to my mind a tiny toddler isn't. That's why small size swings, slides etc exist. If there is no sign or obvious indication that the playground is for tinies, I think parents of tinies have to accept that older children will be racing around (not necessarily on wheels) and will be loud and boisterous. That's what a playground is for. Normal rules like walking, not running, talking, not shouting, don't apply. Obviously I'm not saying it's OK to push and shove or deliberately hurt another.

Recently my son was pulled up by a parent of a tiny toddler. He was on his bike and as he went past them he said 'excuse me'. I imagine he didn't give them lots of warning, but he had been on the ramp for a while as had other bike riders, so the parent could see what was going on.

When my son was tiny, given this situation, I expected to wait our turn or I'd ask the older children to let my toddler have a go. I wouldn't expect older chlidren to immediately stop what they were doing just because my toddler was on the horizon.

I had popped off to the loo, so didn't see this but heard from others that the parent had got really cross with my ds for being there, saying the ramp was for toddlers. I felt, OK, I wasn't around, but both of us had been there for a while and clocked each other, so if she wanted to say something, couldn't she have waited till I got back?

When I did get back she was looking daggers at me. I shoo-ed my son off and the other cycle riders left too. By this time the parent and toddler had left the ramp but were still nearby. When it was free she didn't come back. So I said to my son, OK go back on, but wait if the toddlers return. The looks the woman gave me!

I don't think I am being unreasonable, and I go to playgrounds lots of times with no problem, but it's really makes me cross that this sort of situation occurs. Any thoughts?

Tigermoth I thought playgrounds were for ALL children. I would mention this when you next go.

I also think you have taught your son excellent manners and consideration for others.

How dare some of the other parents complain, it is not like your ds is a bully or boisterous.He is entitled to be there just as much as any other child.

If I was in you position, the next time I go to the playground and something was said to your son I would go and say to that person "what is your problem" and then deal with it from there.

ps If he enjoys it, I would carry on letting him go.He is a child too.
Really some parents are the bullies.

tigermoth, surely most playgrounds are signposted as for under 12's aren't they? In which case, I don't see the problem with your older ds being allowed to ride a bike or skateboard as long as he is being considerate of smaller children, which I'm sure he is. This parent had no right to get cross and I'm sure she knew that actually, otherwise why did she wait until you went to the loo? I agree, she should have waited and spoken to you (or spoken to you earlier) if she had a problem. I suspect though that it was one of those bitchy things: she knew she didn't really have a leg to stand on so she didn't want to discuss it with you, she just wanted to have a bit of a go so she waited until you weren't there. I agree that under 2's shouldn't really be using the ramp - it is for older children. The small swings and slides are for them and are usually clearly marked as such in most playgrounds. Sympathies, it sounds like a PITA and I'm not looking forward to this aspect of the large age gap between my children either!

I can't visualise the ramp- but unless its a toddler specific piece of equipment then he can go where he wants.

I have such a nightmare with ds1 who is totally oblivious of anyone else in the playground (so will run in front of swings bump into people etc) that I avoid going to parks except at quiet times. When he's there I shadow him. I do the same for ds2 who is a toddler. I wouldn't expect everyone else to get out of my way- my problem and all that. likewise during the school holidays older boys (8 year olds) go to playgroup with their younger siblings. My 2 can't handle that so we don't go. I wouldn't expect everyone else to stop to accomodate me though.

Some people are very precious about their toddlers and they forget that the whole world doesn't revolve around them and other people have children as well.

Did you realy leave your child/children alone whilst you went to the toilet? I'm just interested because I can't ever imagen a time when I'll feel confident to do that, you must live in a quieter place than us to feel safe doing this. I'd have nightmares just thinking about it. By the way I'm not criticising you I want to move somewhere that I could do that.

You're not being unreasonable, after all you are there supervising him. I've only been runover once by a child on a bike at a park and it was completley my fault for walking backwards and not looking where I was going. And no I didn't blame the child then or now, parks and playgrounds are for everyone and if the people who live near it and use it don't want bikes then they should get a sign to say that or stop moaning.

Tigermoth, it sounds like you're being utterly reasonable, and that your son is being very considerate.

But, I do get quite annoyed swimming pool when you get older children (10,11 or 12), coming into the small pool, although they can swim perfectly well, and playing roughly - the worst was when an older child brought a lilo in, and lay on it kicking - my 2 year old was completely swamped, as was the entire pool. So in a way I can sympathise with the 'let my toddler play' angle. Although, as I said before, it doesn't sound like the parent in this case had any cause for complaint.

sobernow- you were right to do that though. Kicking a football at toddlers in a toddler area is not on!

tm, can't comment on your situation as i just can't visualise the ramp - our local playgrounds don't have anything like that. the equipment usually has suggested ages though, so if the ramp in question is clearly not restricted to younger kids, i don't think the woman had a right to complain. as to being "precious" about my 2 yr old, i do get annoyed when he is nearly trampled by 7/8/9+ yr olds on equipment which is clearly designated for the under 5s. for the same reason, i try to restrict him as much as possible on the older kids' equipment so he doesn't spoil their fun.

I think if you have a toddler playing in an area where there are older children playing, you should expect to be vigilant, and if there's equipment designed for older children, or where older children are particularly congregating, I would steer a toddler away from that area.

We sometimes visit a swingpark which is probably (no sign) designed for 3-7 yr olds. (My two are 4 and 6). DS1 is very energetic and exciteable, and not terribly well co-ordinated, and does tend to bump into things a bit. If there are very small children around, I warn him there to watch out for them. (Though if I'm honest I probably only do this, because he is so... tall for his age, people regularly take him to be 8 or 9, and think he shouldn't be there).

But if we go to another swingpark, which I guess to be designed for 6-11 yr olds, I don't give a warning. If tinies are there - like ds2 and smaller, then I think they are there at their own risk.

bk, that's not being precious - smaller children have a perfect right to use equipment designated for them without older ones muscling in. That shouldn't happen - neither should the big boy with the lilo in the baby pool, or the older boys kicking balls at the little ones (sobernow, you were right to shout at them!). I would be mortified if a child of mine behaved like that.

But some parents are different - they want a big protective bubble around their little one - don't even like other little ones getting too close. You can understand it but the rest of the world is always going to be there whether they like it or not.

janh, i agree with (what i think is) your basic point... actually, one of the reasons why we like ds going to the playground is that it reinforces the lessons like - sharing, waiting for turns, saying excuse me, not just helping himself to other kids toys, i could go on in tedious, tedious detail! usually, the playground etiquette near us is scrupulously observed, it's actually quite comical at times, "after you", "no, i insist after you", "say excuse me", "wait for the little boy/girl etc"... i think that's what makes the few exceptions so memorable!

i have actually got very annoyed at older children in parks before, but not because of the things below. there was a group of teenagers (from arounf 12-15 i guess tho the youngest may have been about 9or10), smoking and swearing round the toddler part of the park.
i also hate it when older kids 'bomb' the baby pool. i am protective of my kids, but if there was a ramp at the park i would be expecting kids on bikes and skateboards to be using it, i would try and stop my dd1 from climbing on it.

bk, your playground sounds great!

Do they take their hats off to each other too, and shake hands?

(BTW yes, that is exactly what I meant, learning to live with/get along with everybody else is a v important lesson.)

I think part of the probelm with big children and playgrounds is that IME there are increasingly few of them once you get past 7 years. In the playgrounds I go to, most children are aged 3 - 6 with a good sprinking of 2 - 3s. I wouldn't be taking my 9 year old son to a playground half so much if he didn't have a younger brother (as you will discover when you have yoiur second, wickewaterwitch, still at least all those years of sitting in playgorunds guarnatee you lots of fresh air). Left to his own devices, my 9 year old would be doing other things to get exercise. He no longer needs hours of outdoor playtime to guarantee good behaviour. Yet who could argue that the average large children's playground is designed to cater for children up to 10 years at the very least?

The playground with the ramp (a large one with lots of running around space) has one sign only which reads 'playground for under 14 years only' Perhaps 20 years ago, older children did use playgrounds more. I don't know. It just seems to me that the age range the equipment was presumably designed for, and the real age of the average child to use it, is now out of synch. Anyway my point is that IMO people who go to playgrounds are accustomed to seeing younger children because they are in the majority, so older children stick out and some people start wondering why they are there.

I'll try to describe this ramp better: It is part of a big wooden structure with several ramps and walkways in it, none over approx 6 feet high. Ladders leading up to the ramps have big gaps, so this does not suggest it is made exclusively for tinies. All the walkways have railings at the side (can't remember the design) at normal height. There is an approx 6 ft high slide to one end, more used by younger children than older ones, but not IMO designed specially for small toddlers. At the other end, away from the slide, is an approx 20 foot in length gently sloping wooden ramp. High banisters run along it, so tiny toddlers need to have their hands held by an adult if they go on it. The ramp leads onto a long tarmac path with no other play equipment in the way. This makes it ideal to run, cycle or skateboard down. It's not just older children who do this: I have seen children as young as four going down it on wheels or pushing toy cars down it.

As you can see, I've considered its suitablity a lot If there was any sign to say no bikes or skateboards, I'd adhere to it. Since there isn't, and since other children take their wheels on it, I don't feel bad about letting my son have a go. I did have a conversation with a toddler mother that went like this 'pity there's no sign then we'd all know where we stand' (me) 'yes, something to say older children should be banned from using it and no bikes allowed' (her) 'no, I think the sign needs to say age range 3 - 12 (me)' Actually I didn't say this out loud to her - we already had a slghtly heated discussion about this equipment and I was trying to leave her.

Yes, jimjams, I agree with you 'some people are very precious about their toddlers and they forget that the whole world doesn't revolve around them and other people have children as well'

Going back to the mother who told off my son for being on the ramp, what did the others think you ask, janh? The other parents near me were 2 or 3 fathers watching thier children cycle on the ramp so must, I assume, feel OK about their children being on it. I spoke to one who said she had got a bit overcross and raised his eyebrow, but being men I don't think they wanted to get involved in a mother's tiff. The other parents with toddlers did not look like they wanted to take sides either.

Jenie, to set your mind at rest, I did ask another parent to keep watch while I went to the loo. In any case my oldest son is pretty good about being in charge of my youngest for a brief minute.

Incidents like older children bombing little ones in a shallow pool or kicking footballs at them in a toddler designated area of course are wrong and I think you have to step in sometimes Sobernow, I didn't think what you said was OTT at all. I'm sure the boys hear far worse from their teachers every day.

It's no different to soft play really is it. A lot of children ds1's age (4) go on the big equipment. I am quite happy for ds1 to go on it- but wouldn't complain if he got knocked over by bigger boys if he did. The thing is he gets stuck, and I end up crawling all over the stuff (trying to ignore the no adults signs) to force him to go down a slide (with loads of kids falling into the back of him as he's totally in the way). He needs a lot of encouragement to go up high anyway (which I assume is becuase of his lack of depth perception or something). Anyway he is still within the height limits for the toddler area. He's the least boisterous boy I know - he tends to go on the slide over and over again. Slides down them sitting up (doesn't know any other way), and keeps away from the other children. In other words he is fine to go in the toddler bits without upsetting the others, and is still small enough to pass the height test- and yet every time he goes in I get some mother glaring at me for allowing him near her precious 2 year old.

I think some mothers forget that we spent 1000's of years with children co-exisiting in mixed age groups!

Tigermoth, haven't had time to read through all the posts, but am sure that you've had some good feedback. Just wanted to say, I do sympathise, it makes you feel awful when another parent has a go at your child especially when not particularly justified and when you are more than capable of keeping them in line yourself. Also, IME these sort of parents are the last people to b$$$$$K when they step out of line! I think the fact that this woman waited until you were out of the way speaks volumes too. If your son was playing considerately, I don't feel that there was a problem, particularly if other older children were doing the same thing too, why single your son out? If she was worried about her little one getting hurt, she could have moved him out of the way, rather than expect everyone else to give way. Don't wish to sound harsh, but whilst on holiday recently we encountered a number of parents who were happy to put their very young children on adventure play equipment which was obviously way too old for them and watch them struggle along and hold up all the other children (who were within the appropriate age range) even though the younger childrens play things were free. So you see it works both ways, but did the parents of the older children complain, no, we smiled through gritted teeth and told our kids to be careful of the little one.

ah yes, soft play areas can be another social minefield. I've had similar experiences jimjams. At least these places seem to have more signs outlining rules and age range, but they can also attract eagle eyed parents who do more than keep a close eye on their own child. I too have found that once your child is in the upper limits of an age range (toddler or child) you can then get problems. I find myself now with a 4 year old in the upper limits of the toddler section and a 9 year old who's often in the upper limits of the senior section

When my oldest son was a preschooler and older, he still craved my attention so much in those soft play areas - in his case long after he was able and old to play by himself. I was always following him around. If I didn't, there would be big tantrums and sometimes I couldn't handle that in front of a captive audience made up of 'perfect' parents. And he'd never come out unless I went to get him and spent 10 minutes persuading him it was leaving time.

Chanelno5, yes, it did make me especially cross that this woman singled out my son when other children were cycling too. I think you make a good point about parents of older children not complaining if young children go on older children's play equipment. OK in the past I admit I've let my sons do this sometimes, but if they get hurt I didn't blame anyone else. And if I felt we were holding everyone up, I'd take my tiny away asap. But yes, time and time again I've seen parents place tiny toddlers on huge slides for instance, and take lots of time about it, yet they will get uppity with older children who are getting impatient queueing up behind. Sometimes there seems to be this unspoken rule that parents of tinies are in the right.

I don't mean to sound harsh either, and I know most parents of toddlers are great and there's usually enough give and take. I must go to a playground at least 3 times a week and it is only four or five times this whole summer that I've experienced outright discord.

Ds, at the age of 3.5 has decided to spurn the toddlers areas of playgrounds, and now makes for the big stuff. My heart is in my mouth, but he is very capable physically, and since he is quite big for his age fits in reasonably well. I also expect him to take his knocks, which he does better than dd who is 6.5. The only problem that we have is that he looks 4.5 to 5 but has the language skills of a 3 year old, and that sometimes lands him in difficult situations. Plaground poetics is a difficult thing. Today he bumped into a little boy who was lying on the end of the slide. Ds was in the wrong for sliding down before the little boy had got off, but the boy was also silly for lying there for a long time. No harm was done, and both sets of parents got the kids to say sorry, so honor was done all round

tigermoth I wasn't getting at you I was just saying that I wouldn't even be able to do that where I live, I did say that I wasn't critisising you at the time. Sorry if you took offence. I am genuinly very envious of people who live in decent areas where they can do these things.

I want to move somewhere like that but due to dp's job don't see that happening anytime soon.

jenie, please don't feel I was upset with you. Honestly I wasn't, but I thought I'd better answer your question

I wish someone would tell me how to stop my 2.5 yr old from going on the "older" play equipment. I'd be far happier if he stuck to the toddler stuff.

I bet most of these "precious" mothers are protecting their first born child - do you remember how protective you were of your Precious First Born? I would have fought off any child that came near DS1 but with DS2 I can view things from the perspective of a mother of an older child. I still 'reprimand' other children for completely inappropriate behaviour but what I deem inappropriate has changed somewhat. I'm even happy for older children to be in the under 5's bit of the soft play area if they're keeping my DSs amused and allowng me to drink my coffee/read my book in peace!

I agree that there was no reason for your DS not to be riding his bike on the ramp though, Tigermoth.

My stepdaughter turned 12 on Saturday but if we all go to the park ds (nearly 2) goes on the baby swing and my dsd goes on the tyre swing and very much enjoys it. She also goes down the slide with ds between her knees. I think we are far too keen to cut our children's childhoods short. Personally, I'm delighted that a 12year old prefers tyre swings and swimming to boys and discos. I am also delighted we can still do things as a family despite a ten year age gap.

yes, soupdragon, ds is quite bored with the toddler stuff, when he goes on the older kids stuff i just keep a close eye on him and extract him sharpish if it's too much and he is getting in the way - i feel the onus is on me in that situation, but on the parents of older children if they go on the toddler stuff.

just what is so precious about wanting to protect your child from getting hurt? i'm not talking about falling over running or a little scuffle, i'm talking about being knocked flying (potentially) down a drop of 6ft (on the toddler stuff). a large kid going fast on a bike could do a small child a lot of damage... (not saying this is what happened in your case, tigermoth, it sounds like the other woman overstepped the mark)

yes he is my first born