How should older children behave in playgrounds?

[tigermoth]

As a parent of a 9 year old I am sometimes at odds with parents of younger children when I take my son to the playground. I take him to playgrounds because I have a 4 year old, otherwise by now we would be phasing this out. However, my son is still well within the playground age group, and given a bike or skateboard and the right play equipment, enjoys letting off stream.

One of his favourite things is to skateboard or cyle down low ramps. He is too small to go to teenage skateboard parks yet. Half pipes frighten him and he is not good enough to do all the manoeuvres. If there isn't a sign to say 'no bikes or skateboards in the playground' I am happy to let him cycle or skate down small ramps (especially if I notice other childern are doing it too). I expect him to take turns with whoever is there, toddlers or children, or stop if the ramp is very busy. He is usually OK about this, and I am there to keep an eye on things. But I don't see why I should tell him he can't do this at all. This is where conflict happens.

Parents of tiny toddlers (under 2's) using the ramp do not want a big boy careering down it on wheels. If I sense danger or disapproval, I will ask my son to let the toddler have a go, but I will not tell him off for doing what he is doing. A couple of times recently I have sensed disapproving looks and heard comments like 'he's too big to be on here, he shouldn't be riding his bike in the first place' I studiously ignore this.

I think my son has as much a right if not more, than a small toddler to play on general play equipment. He is totally within the age range, and to my mind a tiny toddler isn't. That's why small size swings, slides etc exist. If there is no sign or obvious indication that the playground is for tinies, I think parents of tinies have to accept that older children will be racing around (not necessarily on wheels) and will be loud and boisterous. That's what a playground is for. Normal rules like walking, not running, talking, not shouting, don't apply. Obviously I'm not saying it's OK to push and shove or deliberately hurt another.

Recently my son was pulled up by a parent of a tiny toddler. He was on his bike and as he went past them he said 'excuse me'. I imagine he didn't give them lots of warning, but he had been on the ramp for a while as had other bike riders, so the parent could see what was going on.

When my son was tiny, given this situation, I expected to wait our turn or I'd ask the older children to let my toddler have a go. I wouldn't expect older chlidren to immediately stop what they were doing just because my toddler was on the horizon.

I had popped off to the loo, so didn't see this but heard from others that the parent had got really cross with my ds for being there, saying the ramp was for toddlers. I felt, OK, I wasn't around, but both of us had been there for a while and clocked each other, so if she wanted to say something, couldn't she have waited till I got back?

When I did get back she was looking daggers at me. I shoo-ed my son off and the other cycle riders left too. By this time the parent and toddler had left the ramp but were still nearby. When it was free she didn't come back. So I said to my son, OK go back on, but wait if the toddlers return. The looks the woman gave me!

I don't think I am being unreasonable, and I go to playgrounds lots of times with no problem, but it's really makes me cross that this sort of situation occurs. Any thoughts?

Wait til you get a Neglected Subsequent Child.

have to get this off my chest, although it may well identify me to people who might know me or at least recognise me...

was at our local playground today on a playdate with ds's friend and her parents. was in the sandpit, ds wandering around, didn't have my eyes on him every single second was watching his friend and talking to friend's parents and dh as well.

couldn't believe my eyes when i looked up and saw a strange woman yanking him back by his hood so hard his head snapped back. went over to her and asked her what she was doing. was told he had pushed her daugher over twice, which i hadn't seen. told her if she had a problem she should come to me. told her ds was only 2. was told her daughter only 1. so that makes it ok for an adult to wade in and assault him? i think not.

have been in this situation myself (i.e. ds has been jostled by older kids) and my response is to remove him. I WOULD NOT DREAM OF LAYING HOLD OF ANOTHER CHILD LIKE THIS.

i'm really, really angry about this - and i'm really surprised something like this happened - everyone at the playground is normally so polite.

thanks for listening mumsnetters.

ps - if it was you, wtf were you thinking???

Sympathies BK, it happened to me with dd1 when she was about 2 1/2. Similar situation, I looked up and saw somw woman pulling her backwards off the top of the slide steps, and just dropping her onto the floor. I went beserk, had a stand up argument in the playground with her, then went and told a police officer what she had done (it was in Holland Park, London, and they had a small police station there at the time). He went and warned her that it is an offence to do what she did and if I wanted I could prosecute her for assault. I was fuming for days, because she was so small, because this woman hadn't even bothered to find me, because her mother joined in too, and because dd1 has a problem with her joints which could have been damaged by the roughness of their handling of her.

It amazes me how other so called parents feel they can do what they want.

Is ds ok?

goodness, lou, that sounds awful! hope your dd was ok.

ds is fine, thank you, it's me who is "traumatised"

the playground in question attracts a very diverse range of families from the very affluent to people who live in neighbouring council estates.

the very few "incidents" i've seen there have always stemmed from the "masters of the universe" mentality of the affluent ones...

i can't stand going to the damn playground anyway - have been thinking about other options now that the grim weather is approaching!

thanks for your post

message withdrawn

a characteristically combative post, robinw.

i didn't see ds pushing the child in question. maybe i should have but i didn't. i've only got this woman's word that something was amiss. i'm not going to tell him off for something i didn't see. if i did see him doing something like this obviously it would not be ok, he would be told not to and removed if necessary.

what have i ever said in any of my posts in 3 years on mumsnet that would lead anyone to think i think it would be ok for my child to assault another? sheesh.

i don't mind someone else telling him not to do something - i don't want them yanking him or shoving him or otherwise physically restraining him. that is absolutely NOT ON.

if you do this regularly to small children at your playground, i would watch out, as lou says it can constitute an assault.

i don't think a thirtysomething mum v. a 2yr old is a fair fight.

and my child is not a "horror", he is a charming, intelligent, lively, affectionate TWO YEAR OLD...

BK I would have been fuming. Wish people would realise that 2 year olds do push it is NORMAL!

I'm the mother of a child who is continually pushed around by other kids- what do I do? I remove him. I do not yank another child by their neck. Escpecially when they are 2. No wonder you're fuming.

I must agree that often little children can be annoying to older ones at an all age park - standing blocking the top of the slide and my sons are often(not always) very patient.

Mums of kids this age are ofetn busy with babies(like me) etc and dont see it all. If someone was pushing my son over I would move the child concerned iif it was urgent to do so - - or move my son.

message withdrawn

I'm only a newbie here so sorry if I'm speaking out of turn but surely it's wrong to yank any 2 year old about, especially someone else's child. What sort of message was this woman giving her own child about how to treat others?

I am furious on your behalf, BK. Yanking a child back by the hood is dangerous and unacceptable IMO- categorically an absolute no-no, whatever the circumstances. I'm not sure that I could answer for my actions if I saw someone do that to one of my boys. I would be utterly livid. In fact I feel I must say overtly: "Well done for not decking this horrible, violent bully of a woman."
(Same applies to you Lou and I am dead impressed that you were able to get the police to confirm that potentially a crime had been committed.)
If the woman was concerned about your boy's behaviour towards her child she should have tried talking to him. If that didn't pay dividends, she could have removed her daughter from the play equipment and come to find you. She is utterly and wholly in the wrong and she should be ashamed of herself.

robinw- I'm a bit surprised at your post. I know you have strong and heart felt opinions on parents' responsibility to supervise and control their children but I'm sure you don't think that a 2 year old and a thirty plus year old have equal control over their actions! Don't you think it's pretty shocking that a fully grown adult woman effectively assaulted BK's very young son, pulling him so hard that "his head snapped back"? Personally, I cannot see how there could be any possible justification for what this woman did and I really cannot imagine from years of reading your posts that you would ever do something like this or think it acceptable. Even if babyBK did push this woman's daughter, which we don't know was the case, even if babyBK wasn't being supervised properly- and I personally think the level of supervision was fine since he had both BK and her dh keeping an eye on him- her actions were completely out of order and inexcusable, IMO.

this has raised two issues here. supervision of children and whether or not to tell off other peoples kids. if my child was being naughty pushing, kicking, or anything that isnt her usual behaviour, theni would tell her off and remove her from the situation. at the age of 2, a child should be supervise very closely, dd1 once kicked a boy really hard with her boots on when she was sround 2, she actually bruised him. asked why, apparetly he had been kicking her. i didnt see him kicking her, but spoke to his mum, she had a word with him and i had a word with dd1 about it as well. if the other mum had pulled my dd1 away and told her off, i would have gone mad. it is my job to tell my dd's off, tell me about it and i'll deal with it. no one should ever touch u're child in a rough manner, by all means if there is a full scale scrap going on then seperate the 2 kids, but try and get the other mum to help. but to yank a child just for pushing another child is awful. kids push each other, whether in excitment or playing , but it doesnt mean u should treat a child roughly.

I really don't think that a two year old pushing another toddler constitutes "violence". However a mother yanking a child back by it coat- that is violence! It wouldn't have taught anyone anything other than its ok to shove people around if you're bigger than them.

i wrote below: "have been in this situation myself (i.e. ds has been jostled by older kids) and my response is to remove him."

robin, you haven't read my message properly. above you can see that i have been in this situation myself and know how to deal with it without chastising another child.

spoke to dh about this again this morning, he didn't see ds doing anything untoward at all. even if ds had been pushing, as others have said, he's only 2, it's normal. if i'd seen him do it (bit difficult to see it if it didn't actually happen) i certainly would have intervened.

my guess is he probably jostled her daughter accidentally and she lost her balance. as a one year old she probably isn't too steady on her feet. i think the other mother then exaggerated the incident when challenged by me. i think she forfeited her right to an apology (if one was required at all - debatable) by grabbing my child.

thanks to everyone who posted in support.

i really have to let this go now, it's doing my head in! the irony of it all is, the kids were fine, neither one was crying, it was me and the other mother circling eachother like angry cats who were het up by the incident!

must go and breathe deeply in a darkened room and calm down!

thanks again, ladies

If someone did that to my little boy I would go absolutely ballistic. What a strange and horrible person. I don't suppose there is a two year old in the world who hasn't been a/pushed and b/pushed someone else. It's totally normal, it's not 'violence'. How dare a grown up grab a small child like that. I would never do that to my own child let alone someone elses. I do speak to other children if I feel their actions are hurting ds or putting him at risk (like the older child I posted about on the other thread - who also jumped on a collapsible tunnel while ds was crawling throught it, BTW, which did frighten me) but there is no way I'd grab or yank them about. She was totally wrong - a really paranoid, hysterical mother I expect.

I've been on the other side too btw, and had to physically drag some horrid kid off ds1 when he was about 2, because this boy was sitting on ds punching him in the face (boy was about4), and I mean punching, while mum sat and watched it, doing nothing at all. Then of course she's all cross that I stopped him having his fun. I would say I was right in both circumstances.

Hope you are feeling better today Bk, it took me a while to stop these incidents going through my head.

Well, Lou33, that is clearly a different set of circumstances altogether and in that case I would literally lift the boy off my son and probably shout a bit too.

What I mean is, you were right 100% and the boy's mother must be insane.

What I mean is, you were right 100% and the boy's mother must be insane.

She was truly aggrieved that I stopped him pummelling my son Aloha, tbh I felt like doing the same to her.

oh my goodness, lou, in that situation you would have to remove the child yourself. the other mother saw it and did nothing? unbelievable.

Yes, she was sitting right on front of it all, and I was about 30 feet away. Was a couple of years ago now, but when I think about it I still get really uptight! She probably thought he was being a man like his revolting dad (who was also watching idly while slugging his pint).

Haven't read the other messages, but as a parent of toddler I would say that you have taught your son good manners and he doesn't seem like a problem at all. I also feel that the onus is on me as a mum of a toddler to see that she doesn't toddler off into potential danger.....(e.g. walking directly in front of swings etc).....

Physically assulting a todder by (for example) pulling their hood back (presumably it pulls the coat across their throat as well as snapping their head back?) is COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE. I can't honestly believe that you think it OK RobinW?

The most I'd do would be to put my hand flat on their chest to keep them away from my child and say "That's not very nice, we don't push other children". More usually, I'd simply hug my child away from the "offender" and say the same thing. There's absolutely no need to yank the offender's hood. I suspect the 1yo was a Precious First Born and the mother doesn't realise what 2yos are like. Relish in the thought that she'll be on the other side before too long.