The Release of Jamie Bulger's killers

[Rhiannon]

What are your thoughts on the release of the two boys that killed Jamie Bulger?

Do you think they should have been released and if so under what circumstances?

My personal view is that they should stay in custody. This was a very public case, still fresh in peoples' minds. My little girl is 2 the same age that Jamie was when he died. It sickens me to think about what they did at 10 years old and possibly what they are capable of in the future.

Re: Mary Bell. She had some sort of obsession with death, and what she did was classed as "manslaughter". After she was in a secure unit, she went to prison as you say, and there she became a prostitute and drug dealer/addict. It undid any good that the rehab years did. According to James on "The Wright Stuff" anyway.

I feel that to read the description "horrific torture" is graphic enough for most adults and to seek out or to pour over the details is somewhat voyeuristic, possibly even disrespectful.

What useful purpose would it serve to put RT and JV into an adult prison? Surely the cycle of abuse would just begin all over again and eight years of treatment could go to waste.

Gracie, the rehab was about re-living what they did. Imagining they were James during the time that they took him and also imagining they were James's mother looking for him and then finding out what had happened to him. Apparently they spent a lot of time on this with the boys.

I agree about Denise Fergus needing to let go. I read an article in The Mail yesterday (don't tell anyone I read the Mail). She has trouble even leaving the house still and is unable to let her children play outside. Her husband has recently had to leave work to help her.

It's ok to say that Mrs Fergus needs to put this behind her, but how can she with those two boys staring at her from newspapers day after day? She must replay in her mind that awful day over and over. I'm sure in the 60s when the Mary Bell case was going there wasn't half as much media coverage, so the mother of one of her victims wasn't faced with her oppressors day in, day out. I do agree though that although she can never forget, she needs to somehow find it in her heart to forgive, or the hatred will never go away; the two go hand in hand. But I ask myself how I would feel if I was in her shoes, and I honestly can't say, but coming back to JV and RT I am of the New Testament way of thinking, ie love your enemies.

Midge, I only put the details here because 2 messages explicity denied that there was sexual abuse involved. Sorry, but to me that is a lot more disrepectful to Jamie Bulger than revealing the full details. I do think that anyone who elects to reads this thread (just like the many newspaper articles which went into detail on exactly the same subject)should be prepared to be upset. I have actually avoided it for the last couple of days for that very reason.

Going back to the original message of this thread, yes Rhiannon, I agree they should stay in custody. Imprisonment should be about punishment aswell as rehabilitation and I am fed up with this increasingly liberal attitude towards criminals. I agree this particular case has been sensationalised mainly I think due to the age of the perpetrators of the crime but you only have to pick up any newspaper to see many examples of the criminals rights/needs being put before those of the victim. This sends out the wrong message to society which perhaps is ONE reason why violent crime is on the increase.

And as for Will Self, his self-congratulatory, smug and patronising demeanor makes me puke. There, said it, feel better. Bye.

Interesting article in the Times supplement today about a couple whose 2 year old daughter was abducted, abused and murdered by a 12 year old. They express a great deal of frustration as to the treatment of child-killers in the sense that they were given no information as to the perpertrators' rehabilitation process or when they were released etc. They feel very strongly that the justice process was very heavily in the murderer's interests rather than the victims. The circumstances of her abduction were chilling - a moments distraction at a children's birthday party...

Jbr - I wouldn't take what is said on 'The Wright Stuff' as the truth. As far as I'm aware, from a broadsheet newspaper (although this doesn't mean it is any truer), Mary Bell is now happily married with 2 children of her own.

I haven't looked much more into the case, but it did cause a sensation in the 60's because of her age, so there was just as much media coverage of her as there is of the two boys now. But then, she got a much harsher sentence, even if she was only prosecuted for manslaughter, what these boys did was much worse and they got half her sentence.

As for rehab, no-one can say whether or not it has worked for them as we don't know them as they are now, and I hate to rely on hearsay for that. They must know how much hate there is for them, so that will make their lives very uncomfortable indeed.

I think James's father is being quite dignified in all of this. He says that he doesn't want to stir up this hate campaign as (quite rightly) innocent people could end up being targeted. For James's sake, he wants the matter laid to rest. I can't agree more.

The thing on the "Wright Stuff" (not the greatest show in the world you are right!) was based on that book someone wrote about Mary Bell. She is ok now as you say, but the prison it seems just made things worse.

It has to be James Bulger's mother's choice whether or not she chooses or is able to forgive. Society however, through the legal system, has a duty to rehabilitate criminals. The crime itself is an indictment of our society.

I wish Denise Fergus had been given the help and support that RT and JV have been since James' murder. From what Rhiannon says about the way she lives now, she needs some compassionate professional assistance, not so-called spokespersons stoking the issue up further, and some elements of the press egging her on.
I've already said I don't think it was wrong to rehabilitate these boys, but I just wish the mechanisms were in place to ensure James Bulger's family had been given the same level of professional attention.
Never having experienced anything like the trauma faced by the Bulgers, I can't guess whether it is possible to ever move on from losing a child this way. But they need to be able to cope with the situation and live some kind of life and poor Mrs Fergus is obviously still not able to do that.

Marina, following on from your points, there was a very interesting article in yesterdays Guardian about Neville Lawrence, the father of Stephen Lawrence... the title of which is "If I can change just one child, that will be an achievement"... He says 'For me, finding a way to take the experience of what happened and using it so that Stephen's life has meaning and might do some good is the best healing there is". I find this incredibly inspiring and rather humbling. Basically, Neville Lawrence is using his position to "tackle racism directly" by giving talks on racism even in areas where he is viewed as a 'troublemaker'.

Whilst I would never pretend to know how the family of James Bulger feel one has to have compassion for them; their anger and rage is real and I fear fuelled daily by a story hungry press and readership (I have no illusions that the press alone are to blame... without us as readers their stories would be worthless) The fact that Mr. Bulger has made his recent statement despite his personal despair is to be admired.

I don't think anyone can get over losing a child but I do believe that there are positive ways of dealing with grief. I hope that Denise Fergus does get the help that she needs and deserves.

Winnie, I couldn't agree more about Stephen Lawrence's parents being an inspiration to us all. I was born and brought up in the part of SE London where this disgusting crime was committed and still live nearby. His parents and family have contributed so much more to society, locally and nationally, than the thugs who murdered him. They are an amazing couple, surrounded by a loyal family and friends. This must have helped and I so wish Denise Fergus and Ralph Bulger had had this kind of constructive support, Heaven knows they deserved it after their loss.

Havn't read the article you refer to, Winnie, but what you and Marina are saying about Denise Fergus seems so true.

I wish the amount spent on re-hab was the amount spent on police officers patrolling shopping centres and so on. Then again, if someone really wants to commit a crime (rather than just an opportunistic thief for instance) they will regardless I suppose. These 2 boys must have known they would be caught on camera and didn't care. And they must have known that the forensics would have shown the truth cause of death and that didn't stop them either. I apologize for being graphic. It sounds rather insensitive what I've just said.

Jbr, didn't you point out yourself that they were but children? My daughter at ten is very together but I don't think she has much of an idea about such things as forensics... thank goodness...

I have tried to teach 11/12/13 yr olds cause and consequence in the context of history ie because Charles I raised taxes people didn't like him.

Top sets get it, but the bottom sets just don't see it. They really do have trouble getting the idea that something else leads on to other things. Those boys had no idea about prison, or cameras, or forensics. They probably had no idea dead means forever. Don't compare them to your own kids and say my 7 year old knows this or that, they hadn't been in school for months and we can assume they didn't learn much (of value) at home.

I feel I let them down. We live in a society where social workers are paid peanuts and primary school teachers have 35 kids in their class. No one helped them before it was too late thats our fault. Try stepping in and helping a child and see the reaction you get - I stopped 2 boys fighting in the street, they were 6ish, I assumed no one was with them. You would not belive the mouthful I got for the adults who were with them.

As for Denise Fergus, god knows what I would do, but for the sake of her other children she needs to move on. All these people encouraging her to seek revenge are not helping her at all.

Has anyone read Pat Barker's latest novel, Border Crossing? She deals with this topic of guilt and rehabilitation for a terrible crime comitted by a child really well. Very thought-provoking.

I think Snowy's point about consequences is really very telling. Bad parenting doesn't manage to get consequences across to kids, or only inconsistently. So bad behaviour is sometimes punished with violence, sometimes merely inconvenient or just typical small child behaviour is punished in this way, and at other times, really awful stuff is ignored.

It is really hard to be consistent with kids, so if something has consequences (I don't mean violence, of course, I mean things like a telling off or a removal of privelege or whatever is appropriate) and even parents and kids from 'nice' caring homes find it hard to do. Yet most of us know (maybe because we had good parenting ourselves, or have taught ourselves about it) that it's important, and we strive to do it most of the time. You have to keep on and on being consistent, right through the teenage years. Kids need to know you do all this stuff 'cos you love them and respect them.

That's not to excuse murder, of course not. It doesn't even explain it. But parents are the most crucial influence on a child, for good or ill.

I had my own connections with the Bulger case at the time and so know exactly what did and didn't happen to that little boy. Needless to say there are details so horrific that even/especially his family have been spared from ever knowing them.
All Denise Ferguson wanted was for the two people who tortured and murdered her son to be locked up for the amount of time they were sentenced to - if that had happened she wouldn't be feeling quite so agrieved now.
Maybe she would have been able to move on if she had felt that justice had been done.
There's so much talk of society failing youngsters - but children and adults are let down by society day in day out.
We pass people in the street without knowing that they have been tortured and abused by the very people who should have protected and nurtured them.
Maybe we should be spending more time thinking about how we can people like them feel better able to seek help and protection.
For all the many thousands of 'victims' around us it is incredibly rare for anyone, adult or child, to go on to do the horrific things that Thompson and Venables did.
There will always be injustice in this world - but that can't ever be allowed to excuse acts of evil.
Rehabilitation is great - but so is being held accountable for your actions. Those boys actually believed that their ages protected them from prosection when they were first arrested. They had a trial run at it when they briefly snatched another small child before going on to abduct James.
How would you feel if you knew that Thompson or Venables was your neighbour? Either one of them might be but you will never, ever know.
They and their families have been given new identities which will check out no matter how far anyone delves into them. The extent of cover they have been given normally only applies to spys and secret service agents.
There is nothing we can do to change what happened to James, what happens to his killers and what will happen to James' family.
But maybe we can all look out for the people around us a bit - and as a society try and make it easier for people who have crap lives to tell us about it so that we can help them.
Perhaps we have to accept that evil exists and be as kind as we can to ourselves and those around us.
Oh heck, I;ve gone all evangelical on you all now, but I;m sure you get my drift!

Part of rehabilitation is accepting and understanding accountability for one's actions.

Accepting accountability is one thing - being held accountable is another altogether.
They were given a sentence as punishment for their crime - but they have't gone on to serve it. They've been released years earlier than Denise was told they would be.
Whether they accept what they did was wrong doesn't matter to Denise. She wanted them to be held accountable for it. In other words, she wanted them to serve the full sentence, as was recommended at the time of the trial.

I think they should have done longer in one way, but I am not sure about prison either. All I do know is that only a judge should give sentences, not a Home Secretary. I know that is going off the point a bit.

I was chatting to someone who's worked in psychiatry all their life. we talked about this case, and although I started out in my normal liberal minset, my view has been changed a little...apparently experience has shown that certain types of individual cannot be 'rehabilitated', e.g. paedaphiles and psycopaths. These people will always be a danger to society and for the sake of others should be locked up all their lives. Although only 10 years old, V&T are badly damaged. So damaged that they cannot be rehabilitated and should not be set free.

I know this goes against current liberal thinking but when you think how many children have had abusive childhoods and they don't murder/torture young children, you realise that these boys must have been born with a psycopahic tendency that has been brought out by an abusive childhood. I can't see how they will ever change.