The Release of Jamie Bulger's killers

[Rhiannon]

What are your thoughts on the release of the two boys that killed Jamie Bulger?

Do you think they should have been released and if so under what circumstances?

My personal view is that they should stay in custody. This was a very public case, still fresh in peoples' minds. My little girl is 2 the same age that Jamie was when he died. It sickens me to think about what they did at 10 years old and possibly what they are capable of in the future.

We all hate to think about what it would be like to be the parent(s) of a child killed so horribly and can only sympathise with Mr Bulger and Mrs Fergus. However, equally, I can't imagine what it must be like to be the parent of a child who killed. And if I were the parent the opinion I would have on their sentence and subsequent rehabilitation. I would like to think that even if the family of the child killed couldn't forgive that the rest of society would at least give a thoughtful response rather than a gutter press induced frenzied reaction. I am so glad that the court system is independent of politicians and the whims of the media - long may that continue.

I just think that someone should put out a warning before giving such explicit details about this horrific case, then at least we can choose whether or not to read about it.

When I looked in on this discussion I thought it was going to be a general one about the release of his killers, I wasn't prepared for what I read. Trouble is I get so emotionally involved that I am now thinking constantly about that child's last moments and how he must have felt. My stomach is churning even now at the thought, and I can't stop myself.

This discussion is good in other ways, but please warn us if any more details are to be given out!

Batters, exactly. Unforgivable, forever, yes for what they did they can never be forgiven, if they get forgiveness then should all murderers like Ian Brady and Myra Hindley, the Yorkshire Ripper and many more be forgiven as well?

Sorry Lisav but a couple of people were seeking to minimise the horror of their crime. I think this is far more dangerous than reading the actual details of what actually happened. The detals were of course all published at the time of the trial.

but, tigger, they were adults - and they killed more than once - and they did consciously know what they were doing. you really can't compare them?

Janh, how could they have NOT known what they were doing was wrong? Even at 10 years old they shouldn't have done what they did to that child, although they were only children themselves, to be perfectly blunt, shoving a battery up someones bum and pouring paint in their eyes and interfering with him is not the normal thing to do is it? They obviously had no consience at all, good grief my 2 know that you shouldn't touch other people private parts or let someone else touch theirs, and my 2 are only 5 and 4. One thing though, what on earth must their parents have been like, the mind boggles as to what sort of upbringing those 2 boys had, it must have been dreadful, but it is still no excuse for what they did.

yes, of course they knew it was wrong. i'm not saying they shouldn't have been punished, just that you can't compare their crime and guilt to that of adult serial killers.
did you ever read about the mother of the 5 year-old girl in norway who was killed by 2 boys older than these two? stripped, beaten and stoned? she, and norwegians in general, did not treat them in any way like these two have been treated. and the mother forgives the boys. so it's possible.

If ever two boys know the consequences of killing another, it is Thompson and Venables.

Even if you think they merit no forgiveness for their crime, do you think we should continue to offer them nothing but punishment for the rest of their lives?

Do you have to forgive the 10 year old to let the 18 year old have a life? To me there are two issues regarding of forgiveness.

Surely it is possible to withhold forgiveness for the boys they were, while giving a chance to the young adults they now are?

beautifully put, tigermoth.

Janh - are you saying you could happily forgive someone if they had done something like this to your family Im sure I couldnt. Nobody has a right to do this kind of thing to people, I wonder what Jamie would be doing now.

joe, the british justice system does not operate so that the victim, or the victim's family, has the right to determine the fate of the perpetrator. this does happen in some muslim countries. people get stoned to death - with spectators. ("let he who is without sin cast the first stone"???)

i don't know if i could forgive them in the same situation but whether i could or not is irrelevant in legal terms.

incidentally james's father has said that he does not want vigilantes going after them. (i think his mother, on the other hand, would be quite pleased. but then she is the one with the guilt, as pointed out by other contributors to this thread, for not having held on to him.)

this is old testament justice - an eye for an eye - haven't we moved on from there at all?

star - "they are cruel and nasty boys" - how do you know what they're like now? didn't you ever do anything you regret now when you were a child? people do change. (but i so still feel much more hostility towards myra hindley, because not only was she not a child, she was a woman - it's like the wests - how can a woman do that to a child or another young woman?)

I was listening to the radio when this discussion cropped up - that medium may as well go on about it to grab a few ratings, every other medium has - and this man said they should go to prison to teach them a lesson as they have had an alleged life of luxury and prison is hard. But in the same conversation, he then said prisons are holiday camps! It just didn't make any sense.

I think going to prison will just teach them more crime but I don't think 8 years in a detention centre or whatever the official name is, is enough either. I don't know what to think.

star, admittedly one bottle of coke is not a big deal in comparison, but i bet you wouldn't do it now...and i bet you would be mortified if your kids stole and lied..i know it's not the same but do you see what i mean? we all make mistakes - they made an unbelievably horrendous one.

i accidentally set fire to a hay barn, playing with matches. i was most concerned afterwards about a family of kittens that lived up at the back but discovered later that their mum got them out, which made me feel better but didn't help the farmer much.

I also came onto this discussion not expecting to read such graphic deatils of Jamie Bulgers murder. I was going to back up my husbands opinion that maybe it is time to trust the state, the people that have been treating RT and JV and the legal system.
I can only say now that 1), the details made me physically sick and like Lisav I would have appreciated some warning and 2) I find that in view of what I have read here I cant, for the moment stand by my original feelings.

I should add that I was probably naive in not remembering how frank mumsnet discussions can be.
I agree with the press comment that RT and JV will never truly be "free" but then for now, my feeling is - why should they be?

Well can I just say that for anybody who wants to debate the case without knowing the full and true details of the actual crime at the heart of it, don't read this thread.....

Gracie, you'll have to expand on that. The details given here are the same as I've read (didn't know about the batteries though).

Everyone has their own opinion which they are expressing here.

I think Gracie means that we shouldn't be discussing this case unless we DO know the full facts, unpleasant or not. And this thread does provide us with the facts.

I agree with what Tigermoth and others have said about the need to retrieve something from the great tragedy of James Bulger's murder.
I have been following Deborah Orr's thought-provoking comments on the decision to release RT and JV and found the her columns helped me try and make sense of my feelings of disgust, anger and incomprehension over this case:
Independent Home Page
You can't link direct to individual columns but they can be searched on the paper's main page. The column of 18-06-01 queries why the British have such a problem with rehabilitation and today's is a tribute to Ralph Bulger's courageous and unselfish statement about the release.
I think those young men will have no kind of life outside the security of their units. I don't really have a problem with their living a joyless and proscribed existence for the foreseeable future, to be honest...but I think it is right that the state protect them from vigilantes, most of whom have no connection whatsoever with the case and are just looking for someone worse off then themselves to beat to a pulp.

Sorry Rhiannon - as Lil said, that's what I meant. Can't help but feel that if people want to voluntarily enter into a debate about this subject and pass judgement, that a necessary part of that is knowing the facts, however unpleasant.

One facet of the case that bothers me is the lack of information as to what form the borys rehabilitation has taken. On the assumption that it has been successful, this is a fairl remarkable transformation given their troubled backgrounds. I for one would be interested to read how this was achieved and why it can't be applied to more child / teenage offenders.

gracie, there was a piece in the guardian on saturday by paul kelso about the rehabilitation process; if you go to the homepage (guardian.co.uk) and put his name in the search box you should get it.

as to why more don't get it i should imagine cost is a key factor...

Janh - I dont believe the boys should be hunted down, I dont really believe in things like public stoning etc, but I do believe when people do commit a crime they should be punished. If the boys had been held for longer, it would have been better. This goes for all criminals, some people are happy to be in prison, no rent, meals everyday, perhaps a better life than some are dealt outside. I dont have the answers but Im sure there are lots of things they could be doing.

joe, if they were held longer they would have to go to an adult prison. even in the lowest category of security - and would you want them in one of those? - there would be some very violent dangerous people. do you think they would be improved by mixing with people like that? and what do you think those people might do if they found out who they were?

they have been punished. and the rest of their lives aren't really going to be a lot of laughs either. would you like to live with what they have in their heads?

I just read an article about the mother of one of the victims of Mary Bell - she strangled two children when she was 10.

She served a lot longer than Thompson and Venables - 12 years in all. However, the mother of her first victim says that she has forgiven Mary Bell for what she did. Mary Bell is now living her life out somewhere, with a new identity, just like the two boys. This mother has managed to put it behind her and get on with her life. She warned that if you give in to hate, it will eat you away and eventually destroy both you and your family. The only way for Denise Fergus to move on is to put this behind her. If she cannot forgive then fine, but she cannot keep hating. She must concentrate on the two children she now has.

You really must read this article, it was in The Express today.