The Release of Jamie Bulger's killers

[Rhiannon]

What are your thoughts on the release of the two boys that killed Jamie Bulger?

Do you think they should have been released and if so under what circumstances?

My personal view is that they should stay in custody. This was a very public case, still fresh in peoples' minds. My little girl is 2 the same age that Jamie was when he died. It sickens me to think about what they did at 10 years old and possibly what they are capable of in the future.

[Pupuce]

Croppy,

I have also read that the description you just gave was not accurate... the decapitation (at least) happened when a train ran over him (not what Jon and Robert did). I also heard several times that he WAS NOT sexually abused.
It is very easy to spread false rumours rather than to print the truth (especially when the rumours are so much worst!).
I also agree with others that sending them to longer punishment isn't a solution. I "trust" that they were properly "cared" for by doctors and specialists when they were in their unit. All right it wasn't a jail (and by the way some jails also feel like camps-with TVs, etc) but they were not in a "do what you like" environment and probably got much better care and education than if they had stayed in their respective homes (where they had a difficult childhood). But vengeance is NOT the solution.

[Croppy]

Errr that's what I said - his body was left on the track to be decapitated. The trial transcripts are absolutely clear that he had batteries inserted into his anus (that's the secual abuse) & blue enamel paint poured into his eyes amongst other things. I'm afraid that is fact not false rumour.

[Croppy]

Don't get me wrong Pupuce, I also don't believe in vengeance and my view is that society let down those 2 10 years olds very badly.

[Sml]

I didn't know the details of what happened until now.

[Sml]

Croppy, society has let down thousands of people in similar circumstances who haven't done something like that.

[Croppy]

I agree totally Sml. Not trying to defend them in that sense - I just find the whole thing so utterly devastating that I don't want to get into an argument about it....

[Tigger]

Can we all sit here and say hand on heart that we have NEVER lost sight of any of our children? How can anyone blame this childs mother for what happened, Jbr I find that totally comment you made quite unacceptable.

What these boys did is vile to say the least, put yourself in James Bulgers mothers shoes for one minute, would you be happy if the killers of one of your children was relased into a "Life of riley", new name, new home, money etc. Mrs Bulger has the rest of her life to think about that. I know my own strong feelings of protectiveness for my own children and they say that a mothers instinct is so strong.

In 1973 when I was 3 my mother had me on REIGNS in Marks and Sparks in Glasgow, she was shopping with my aunt, she droppped the reigns to pick up a dress for me and I was off, literally it took less than 3 seconds my mum says. Now was she a bad parent, no she wasn't but it didn't take her long to find me as the Cashier had tried to hold my hand and my mum heard me screaming the place down. From my own experience with my 2 children, I have found that town or city children are far more streetwise from an early age, my 2 are completely hopeless at crowds and stick like glue to me when we are out and to their dad. But yet my 2 are very careful in our rural area, I dare say 2 different walks of life.

It has been said that Thompson and Veneables cried when they were told they would be released, what are they scared of, somebody hurting and then killing them, should have thought about that then shouldn't they, when they killed James Bulger. What sort of environment were those boys brought up in, to commit such a hideous crime at such a young age, they knew they were doing something wrong, and they should pay the price by doing the sentence they were committed for.

[Croppy]

I agree Tigger. I find the attacks on Mrs Bugler horrible. Will Self on Radio 4 on Saturday morning delivered a speech in which he attacked her for not forgiving the two boys. A perfect example of how out of touch the "liberal elite" is with the average person. I agree that society as a whole should be prepared to forgive but see no reason why she should be compelled to.

As an aside, I just checked with my sister who was involved with the trial. While the issue of the batteries was the view of the forensic detectives it wasn't accepted by the court as conclusive evidence. It was however accepted that his penis and foreskin had been manipulated.

[Winnie]

Tigger, nobody can defend the killers of James Bulger. This was a hideous crime beyond words... but to think that these young men will be living the life of riley is simply not true. Alife of looking over your shoulder 24/7, and dealing with the guilt is not living the life of riley. They have not been free. Should these children, at the age of ten, been put in a prison to rot or should we perhaps have put them in an electric chair? Two wrongs do not make a right. I personally believe that the system, and their parents particularly, let these children down greatly. Yes, sml, children are let down all the time and don't carry out such horrendous crimes but these children did and as a society we should be examining the reasons for this so that such things never happen again. These children had to commit the most horrendous act before they got the help they needed, that too is despicable.

[Winnie]

Like wise Croppy, I agree, that concentrating on the family, the victims, serves no purpose. One cannot imagine how they feel.

[Lil]

I am so sick of reading about this case it took a lot of effort to read this string! But can i add my twopenceworth...

Yes those kids did an awful thing - but they were children - and there are adults out there that certainly should know better, they have abused and killed children, yet we never hear what happened to them once the justice system took them away.

I think the problem is that many of these child abusers (not just sex here) abuse and neglect their own kids, so the public think these awful parents are not a threat to OUR kids so don't pay them another thought.

I don't blame Mrs Bulger one iota for wanting to string these boys/ lads - but its not right that the rest of us become baying hounds.

More than 1 child a week is killed at the hands of an adult. We should focus on doing something about that, rather than spending anymore newsprint on this!!!!!!

[Sml]

Croppy, me too, I just can't talk about rights and wrongs and society in terms of this case.

[Winnie]

Lil, what a hideous statistic!

[Janh]

but, tigger, they were very young and very immature and robert thompson, in particular, had an appalling home life - he was bullied constantly, it turned him into a bully (of course), he used to bully jon venables at school, and the day this happened was a day he had decided not to bully him - so naturally, being a victim normally, jon venables would be doing his best to belong - do you know what i mean? i wasn't bullied at school, but there were kids who would not usually let me join in, and if they occasionally did i was their slave!

the bulger family tried at the hearings last week to convince them that robert thompson is actually a psychopath. this was rejected. i do worry that he has 10 years worth of abuse in him, and wonder whether the subsequent 8 years of rehabilitation have been enough to cancel that out. obviously if they had been adults when they did it they would have had to serve many many years yet - but they weren't - and in some countries they would not have been tried as adults. if they had been 9, not 10, they would not have been tried as adults here. jon venables' brother and sister have learning difficulties so i can imagine his parents had less time for him than for them and that he was left to his own devices a lot. yes, they were streetwise, but how wise were they in the rest of life?

i know loads of kids have lives like this, and worse, and don't go out killing toddlers, but they were really very pathetic little boys, and shouldn't be treated as anything else...

[Lil]

Yes Winnie, I know statistics are always dodgy - but I read it in a thorough article on children in abusive homes etc.

Now I do wish I hadn't read this thread because despite my rhetoric on excess newsprint I just read an excellant article in a scottish paper, on the web. It takes a refreshingly different view and is really worth a look.

www.scotlandonsunday.co.uk/week.cfm?id=SS01023180&feed=N

sorry its a cut'n paste - wish I could do links!

[Winnie]

Lil, I wan't suggesting your statistic was wrong, simply horrendously shocking. Thanks for the article.

[Croppy]

Thanks for pointing that out Lil - well worth reading.

[Tigermoth]

Can I just add a quick quesiton to this thread?
I agree that however awful their crime, Thompson and Venables should now be released on probation. However much sympathy I feel for the the victim's family, the fact remains that their killers have had 8 years to change. And aren't the years betwen 10 and 18 one of the most life-changing times of our lives.

But - do the terms of the probation reflect the extreme nature of the crime? I would be very concerned if Thompson's and Venables' probation followed the same pattern as that of a young car thief etc. I'm not talkng about their identity change, but about how they will be monitored and counselled in the coming months. Doesn't much of what we feel about their immediate future hinge on this?

[Tigger]

Of course these boys shouldn't be hounded, and there is no need for "Mob Rule". It was the nature of the attack on James Bulger that I find so utterly repulsive. Yes these boys were just children themselves, but at 10 years old to do something as vile as that, in my mind is totally unforgivable. Will these boys receive further therapy when they are released?, and what are the conditions that they will have to adhere to? I do fear though that there will be someone someday that reveals where these boys are, and I find that wrong as well.

[Lisav]

I just read things on this thread that I wish I hadn't read. I do think this thread should come with some kind of a warning, as I have been trying to avoid knowing what they did to that little boy.

You all have good points to make, but please don't go into such lurid detail about it all. Nobody was there, no-one knows what really happened, and I for one don't want to know beyond the basics. I feel sick just thinking about it now.

No more!!!!

[Tigermoth]

Lisav I can see where you're coming from. When I eventually found out some of the facts about the killing I was stunned. This is not in connection with this board as such, but I find talk comes far more easily when you are looking around the subject. Come up against the central facts, and I find myself lost for words.

However, I have chosen to tell my 7 year old son the outline of this sad story. As a pretty independent, stranger-friendly child who plays out and has little hesitation approaching shop assistants etc, I obviously want him to know that not all strangers and strange places are safe and friendly. And this widely publicised news story is a case in point. So he knows that two boys of 10 took away and killed a boy of 2.

We have discussed some of the issues involed. In this context he knows why adults can get so cross about play fighting and boys ganging up on each other. He is not stupid, he has seen some of the news bulletins and I feel it is best to be open with him. How do others feel about this?

[Knakered]

We should put this in perspective - 8 years is nearly half their life time already - they have had no childhood - they have no future - they are released on licence only - they are not free in legal, practical or emotional terms. I think that although we have to ask how did we let these children down in the first place - I also think that it is some credit to our system that we can turn this around through effective rehabilitation (agree yet to be proven).
I also have to ask what is driving the fascination/anger etc with this case. I can see the only difference being that the killers were children themselves. As said before crimes as grotesque as this happen frequently in this country at the hands of parents, carers (under the noses of social services)as well as abducters. To me we should ask why the extreme response ?? -- if it is because the killers are children rather than adults I would have expected of course shock etc initially but in many ways the opposite of the backlash we have seen.
I think that the biggest mistake (which has fuelled the media/public rage) was the initial decision to publish names and photographs - as well as not allowing reporting of how the killers progressed through rehabilitation. What would be constructive for society is some debate as to what conditions could have possibly contributed to this situation and equally how or if we have made any progress.

[Janh]

tigger, when you say unforgivable, do you really mean that? never?
as for "someone someday" - the press restrictions only apply in ENGLAND AND WALES. nowhere else. not on the internet. they have to stay in this country. how long, realistically, before someone unforgiving attacks one of them?

[Knakered]

Lisav -- I understand the discomfort that you feel reading these details. Since I have had children I find that my emotions are so raw that I have avoided reading detail of such cases - and when I have read details I have felt grotesquely voyeristic. However we have a responsibility to be in pocession of the facts so that we can contribute to debate and progress effectively....being apalled/disturbed/distressed by the capacity of other human beings/society means that we are at least somewhere along the line of doing something about it.