do you think that it's possible to have a sensible conversation about awareness re falling fertility in the light of the other thread....

[Heathcliffscathy]

sorry about the humungous thread title...

but do you think we could talk about the question of putting off career to have babies/being aware of falling fertility as you age without resort to handbags at dawn?

i know it is a terribly emotional thing for all of us (me included massively). but is there room for discussing whether there should be a cultural seachange back to having your children younger...to avoid the pain and heartache of waiting til you're in your forties to start and struggling?

As opposed to the old-fashioned kind of conditioning that got women into the labour wards and the kitchen, igivein?

even if men are fertile longer, there are implications to haveing children later. to being the oldest parent in the playground, being mistaken for the grandparent. other more serious issues such as a child losing their parent at a more tender age. obvioulsy younger parents do die, but someone having their first child at 55 or older is going to have different issues to someone 20 years or 30 years younger.

I think is sisterly to point it out, if you can do so tactfully without causing offence. I have had conversations with women I work with re our maternity policy (when it was under discussion here) and they have said 'well I don't want children for a few years' and I wish I knew them well enough/had the confidence to say to them what Lulumama suggests.

But then I also think its harsh and unsisterly to say to someone struggling with infertility 'didn't you know fertility declines drastically post 35?' - well clearly not, silly me, I'll just do as you say and stop trying.

The trouble with it though, is that it's being said (on that thread) to people who are already having fertility problems. So it's of no practical use at all, and just blames the woman who is going through a waking nightmare.

Frankly, I don't know what the solution is, as I get the feeling that the only reason why a lot of the older generations had their children early in life was because "that's what you do". And it doesn't necessarily make for a very loving and involved family. I'm sure it contributes to the "the grandparents show no interest" phenonmenon too that you see so often on here. They felt that their own youth was spent (wasted?) running around after babies and children and have no interest in doing the same again.

Well, I'm all for putting the information out there. How can women possibly make informed choices about their fertility if they don't have all the facts.
And picking up on a point made earlier - it's not just the chances of getting pregnant that diminish after 35, the likelihood of an uncomplicated pregnancy and having a baby without problems is also reduced.
I made a conscious decision to start having children in my mid-20s which turns out to have been a good thing in my case. I didn't have problems conceiving but did have problems maintining a successful pregnancy which got worse each time. I get chills thinking about how I could have so easily waited - I had no idea at the time that fertility dropped off so much.

Sorry, haven't read whole thread - am at work and haven't time right now. But wanted to say re the other thread - I think starting an AIBU which is about being unsympathetic about women who've left it too late is guaranteed to get people's backs up.

A sensible discussion however is very welcome.

And having skimmed the first page, as ever, I think MP hits the nail on the head.

orm, that kind of illustrates the point i was making

that making a choice, saying you wanted to be a mum/wife/SAHM made people sneer,and look down on you

like wanting to raise a family is not really that taxing or important

we place so little value on parenting as a vocation almost, that staying at home with the children is so mundane and worthless

Of course, we're all discussing this on the wrong website, and need to all hijack some kind of young trendy site (not at all sure what this would be as I'm a complete fogey now!). If you're on Mumsnet then it's a fair bet that you have children, or you're trying pretty hard to have them, and either way, that particular horse has bolted.

it is important of course it is

but not at the expense of being allowed to want to raise a family first, and then go on to have a career

For those who have said that you will be informing your daughters about declining fertility in later life and its concomitant implications...what will you be advising your sons??

I would imagine the advice is different for young men about to start on the career ladder?

'Don't settle down too soon'
'Sow your wild oats'
'Don't have kids too young' and so on?

We started TTC earlier than all our friends because one friend sat me down and said "A good friend has just died aged 35. Don't put this off, do it now." Like Lenin, it was a conversation that really stayed with me. Generally, people DON'T say those things at all.

N.B. David is now on my profile

let's face it, for the majority of men, having a child is not going to have the same impact on stalling their careers as for a woman.

i know a lot of SAHMs or mums who work v part time or term time only

i know one SAHD

Not read all the thread yet but, whipsandfurs (love the name BTW) male fertility is not as age reliant as females' is it?

(Not that I shall ever be telling my sons to "sow their wild oats")

I had DD 2 years ago at 26 and most of the mother's I came across were a few years older than me.

I wonder if part of it is making it easier to have a career and children, more subsidised childcare. Plus I am so sick of hearing from people like my old boss 'well, it's your choice to have children'

I don't really have much to add on the topic, declining fertility doesn't come as a great shock to me. I don't know if there is much info about male fertility decline though. DH is 17 years older than me so that was definitely a factor in us having a child sooner rather than later.

Orm
I'm not saying the 'kinder kirke kucher' conditioning is good, I'm saying conditioning generally is bad, and young women should be encouraged to think about what they want in life, and not be channeled down one particular route.

Well that is down to the individual woman lulu is it not? We are in danger of throwing the baby (so to speak ) out with the bath water. Women fought for economic/social indepedence for good reasons. Having babies is not the only driver for many women.

I don't really understand how women have missed the whole "your fertility declines as you get older" thing. Maybe it's because I had an older mother who told me from an early age, that because she was past 35 when she had me, she was monitored throughout the pregnancy.
Sorry to put a damper, but there's not only the health risks. There's psychological/cultural as well. Many of my disagreements with my DM stem from the fact that there's nearly 4 decades age difference between us, and it's like we're barely speaking the same language 90% of the time. I see the same with my cousin who was born when my aunt was in her early 40s. It can be difficult for both mother and child.

But, I also think men should take some responsibility. Some (not all) don't seem to get that if they wait too long, the woman they love may not be able to have children. I have a friend in her early 40s who still talks about "when" she has children, but the likelihood of that happening is so tiny now. It's a pity because she would make an amazing mother.

Too true igivein. But some of this discussion really frightens me. Women don't have to be just one thing anymore.

The biggest issue isn't declining male fertility - it's that all these women who realise that they don't want to leave it too late need someone to have children with. So we need to educate men that it's not emasculating to settle down before 40.

MP - the lack of trousers is very disturbing.

I would be shaking them and saying DON'T DO A STUPID ARTS DEGREE