I hate the expression full time parent!

[Jbr]

It is always the term given to parents who don't have a job. Well, lets be honest, MOTHERS who don't work. (Men don't get these labels do they? In fact the very idea that a man wouldn't work because he has children rarely seems to crop up anyway!).

But my point is, I saw Carole Smillie on the front on a magazine saying "Why I could never be a full-time mum" which I inferred as "Why I could never give up work" or something similar. I would hope even if she worked on the Moon 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, she would still be a "full time mum". In fact I wish she would go to the Moon and take Carol Vorderman (another woman who wishes she didn't work - believe it or not - and once said she wishes she could stay home and be a "proper" mother!!) with her. You are still someone's mother whever you are. Why do people think being a mother means one thing and being a dad means doing something else?

Sorry I just had to rant!

Have just thought that I've probably been very tactless and offended Mums of kids called Rupert or Orlando (am assuming that no one has a kid called Fauntleroy!)... Sorry. I don't think they're nasty names at all- I think Orlando is a really sweet name in fact- just would think twice before bestowing those names if I was expecting my child to speak like Hugh Grant or Celia.

But what if you/dp/dh have a 'plummy' voice? Would it be a good idea to correct your children so that they speak differently from you?

I know where you are coming from Scummymummy but don't you think that you could be accused of suggesting that the heritage and traditions of the upper classes are somehow less valid than those of the working classes?.

And wouldn't that mean you'd be perpetuating the dreaded 'Nigel Kennedy' syndrome - born plummy but speaks Estuary just to be perceived as 'cooler' and 'down with the working man'?

Cringe.

Star - no I didn't think these people were not nice because they were middle-class, I thought they were not nice because of the way they treated me. Sorry for dragging the class issue up again, but these NCT people live in very large semi-detached houses, are mainly SAHM's whose husbands are accountants or civil engineers and work long hours, they take skiing holidays, buy everything organic, have cream carpets with no stains on and are always immaculately presented. I joined in with my gypsy charity clothes, leather jeans and Doc Martens, dd in same (obviously not leather jeans and Docs though!) and you could just see the looks of disgust! But I tried to make a go of it for dd's sake, but the last straw was when I offered to host a few at my house, I cleaned the house from top to bottom, bought nice biscuits, etc, etc and no-one turned up. This happened twice, the first time I made excuses for them. It's as if my house is not good enough. They all live in quite a well-to-do area which is right next to where I live which is not so well-to-do. So as soon as they found out where I lived they judged me accordingly.

I'm sorry but I do tend to find that working-class people are friendlier in their approach. I've been to lots of mums and tots groups now and the people to make the first approach to me will be the working-class ones. It's as if they have nothing to prove and nothing to lose. I wish there wasn't such a difference and I don't paint all mc's with the same brush, but there are truths in the class stereotypes.

I don't have misted photo or gold taps but I do have herbs, so what does that make me? I have an education and a mortgate but no job and we are on the breadline, dh is a blue-collar worker. I think I am just me and wish people would accept me for that instead of judging me on the area I live in, the clothes I wear, the job dh has (they automatically assume he does not have an education or any brains at all). If we all just stopped judging each other and looked a little bit deeper we would all be better people and better mothers no doubt too.

v interesting discussion here. So interesting i have had to change my nickname for a minute.

i am going to back track to Tillysmummy's suggestion about addict parents not being allowed to have children. i know of a couple - both social workers, middle class (as in herbs in the window box, received English pronounciation). They have one child - devoted to her- very 'PC' in attitude. They also happen to class A drug addicts, undergoing counselling as far as I am aware, but still with a problem. Would you take their child away from them? they have similar friends, 'good' parents who hold down jobs but also have a drink or drugs problem.

Abuse does not a bad parent make, they tell me. i'm sure they'd have lots to say about this discussion.....

Scummymummy - it's only a disadvantage if they haven't got the money to back up their pretensions. If they've got the money then they don't ever have to come into contact with the "great unwashed". Private schools, jobs for the boys (and girls), private weekend parties, private clubs, private beaches, mega expensive shops and restaurants...they can afford to ignore the rest of us, and that's the reality.
I'm not specially emotional about this, it's just a dispassionate observation - but then, like others here, I have a foot in another country which isn't based round a class system.

Croppy, that's a perfectly valid viewpoint if you happen to be a socialist!

sml, if you are a socialist you wouldn't want to encourage ANY heritage or traditions, lower or upper class.

Not a swipe, just a pedantic observation.

still no solution for mr blair tho is there? am not suggesting everyone be educated to degree level - i mean education as in a learning process any learning at all , pottery, diy classes whatever -when i was talking about people opting out of society it was more motivation and hope and ambiton and to be able to make a decision instead of thinking its all predetermined whatever i do it wont make a differnece, so i wont vote, wont work, wont care!
and i think you will find that working class and middle classes are swiped at equally not just everyone picking on mc's after all its the mc's who have the power, the education, who vote and who take part in society, u generally therefore would have more influence , no?
my other point is right or wrong i came to the conclusion after reading some of the threads that i couldnt believe how small some of the problems were people were posting ( i know its all relative nappy rash and whether to read to baby at 3 minutes old) because i had biger problems to worry about and thats what i was getting at with aldi remark. it seemed to me that middle class people wanted to be paid for sstaying at home and looking after their children! i cant see how this could work in practise, there are socially better things to spend taxes on, education, health etc the list is endless.
and hows this for a laff.... the government considered me to be middle class when i was at university! now i owe 7 grand - hubby approx the same and this is a labour government keping the two teir educational system it makes me sick! with three kids i would have to save 30 grand to help them get through uni with no loans at least... kep us poor people at the botom of the pile - so we can work in factories! ( not meant to be a jibe fried egg mum) i mean we all should have equal rights and an EQUAL choice!

ooh and on the accent front its makes me laff..... i moved down south with the broadest northern accent and the assumptions of me are incredable, like we all wear flat caps and have cobbled streets( i tell them no, thats just yorkshire) i even had someone say "your so common i bet you call your kids little B's dont you"! infact i quite like playing up to the stereo type it amuses me how daft these southerners are !!!

i also think you can believe in broad socialist ideals without sinking into the realms of failed communism ( traditon, history , religeon etc) and i do think that the traditions of the middle classes are not as valid as the working classes becuase we had to fight for our traditons despite and because of upper/middle classes

Custardo - working class traditions being more valid than middle class ones because they were fought for: I take it you think tradition is classed based?

What about all those regional, religious and family traditions - first and foremost determined by class or not? I (think)I can see how you'd argue this, but I'd need a lot of convincing.

Quickly reading though this tread, it seems to me that you and tillysmummy are asking the same question from different angles: how to determine who are the 'good' parents who choose to stay at home and are therefore (in tillysmummy's eyes at least) deserving of goverment support.

It is a totally unanswerable question, IMO. I will read this thread avidly to see it anyone can answer it and I'll take my hat off to them if they do.

Accepting that we - society - (mumsnet even ) can't answer this question leaves IMO two courses of action:

1. We educate the next generation of parents so they know their future is full of choice and support (fine words, I know - needs money to make it happen). IMO, change starts with the children. And society (as others have said) has to step in and support parents if they can't cope.

Or

2. Here on mumsnet we discuss nappies and all the other small issues your search around the site has unearthed - lots of angst and dispair hidden amongst the trivia no doubt

At least we have the power to change the details - or does that call to mind the words Rome, fiddles and burning?

come on Enid, people's traditions encompass everything from the language they speak to what food they cook and what they consider good manners. It's a little while since I studied politics, but I don't remember it being a necessary part of socialism to abolish all of this.

tigermoth - everything's class based amongst the British!!

Is Mumsnet not here for the small things in life as well. Certainly I enjoy these debates but the reason I joined was to see what pearls of wisdom others had about the small things. I hope this fried egg thing isn't going to stick (no pun intended) I will never be able to show my face in the food threads again! I agree education should be open to everyone just that it is not everyone's cup of tea so to speak. My DH left school with virtually no qualifications to do manual work with his dad, eventually his dad gave him part of the business, outdoor unskilled manual work when we married I was quite happy with this be he obviously wasn't. Since we have married he has taken up work based training, partly funded by ourselves and partly funded by various employers he has had over the past few years. Certainly the job title he has now would be considered middle class but not with the salary to match as he is not fully qualified and probably never will be. He can do the job fine just is not the studious sort who can study and pass exams. However most employers consider him qualified by experience and in that case a bargain as they can get away with paying him less. I also hope that my children do more in life than working in a factory, but if that is what they really want to do I hope I will be supportive when the time comes. I however feel that the best I can do for them just now is to be at home with them, I feel this is far more valuable than me working to save for private school education (not that I am down on any mum who does this it is all a matter of choice). Certainly we need to put funds in place for further education should they wish this and hopefully by the time our children are ready to go to University/College (if they want to go) it has not been priced totally out of the league of the ordinary person, that would be sad.

Personally I think that so much of what we see as being class based, age based, race based etc etc is related to prejudice and pre-conception.

The great thing about Mumsnet is that you get to hear all types of advice and opinion without having been looked up and down first and the person deciding "Oh she's a snob" or "She's rich so she wouldn't understand" or even "well she's frightfully common".....

I suspect that if you took a single issue raised on this site and analysed the differing responses, the opinions wouldn't be as divided as much along class (or any other group) measure as you might have supposed. I often find myself in vehement agreement with soomeone on an individual issue and in equally vehement disagreement with them on another issue.

I do think people can be so chippy about others origins that they close themselves off to that person without giving them a chance or really listening to what they say.

Sorry, sml, I meant class-based traditions in general, I know there are lots of definitions of socialism out there, but I thought the over-riding principle of Karl Marx's form of socialism was to do away with class altogether?

Custardo, do you jump about doin "Ecky thump" an all lass!!!!!! Sorry could not resist that, I know exactly what you mean, in Scotland unless you speak like Jackie Bird or Sally Magnusson, you're either from the Gorbals or some Utter Hebridean Isle!! Me on the other hand is West Coast near Ireland and apparently speak like the Irish/Scots, in our terms Galloway Irish.

Croppy, do you have Gold Taps, or does anyone else??? I am in such a silly mood at the minute!!

tigger, we've got brass effect taps. I hate them.

Brass - does that mean I am working class? or, ince I hate them, am I middle class?

Going on from Bells message, I don't think the prejudice and pre-conception we encounter in real life is just a class issue. I don't think it's that simple or that fundamental, nowadays, at least, sml. Day to day judgements made about me by other people - the way I handle my children at Mcdonalds, the state of my hair style, the musie;c I listen to in the car - are not so clear cut. Elements of my life are part upper, part middle and part lower class cliche - though I stop way short of nobilty!

Even worse Tigger. Lots of chrome and Philippe Starck I'm afraid.

I have reclaimed, genuine brass taps in my kitchen (middle class). But they are covered in green limescale because I hardly ever clean them (upper middle class/bohemian). But it upsets me that they are so dirty (lower middle). So I think I'll ask the cleaner to give them a good scrub next week (middle).

I think that's a very good point Bells2. Well said.