I hate the expression full time parent!

[Jbr]

It is always the term given to parents who don't have a job. Well, lets be honest, MOTHERS who don't work. (Men don't get these labels do they? In fact the very idea that a man wouldn't work because he has children rarely seems to crop up anyway!).

But my point is, I saw Carole Smillie on the front on a magazine saying "Why I could never be a full-time mum" which I inferred as "Why I could never give up work" or something similar. I would hope even if she worked on the Moon 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, she would still be a "full time mum". In fact I wish she would go to the Moon and take Carol Vorderman (another woman who wishes she didn't work - believe it or not - and once said she wishes she could stay home and be a "proper" mother!!) with her. You are still someone's mother whever you are. Why do people think being a mother means one thing and being a dad means doing something else?

Sorry I just had to rant!

Tigermoth - I think you are right that cliches are just that - cliches, and don't tell the story of anyone's background. I've had the experience described by Croppy of being frozen out because my accent's too posh, and in other circles, I've been frozen out for exactly the opposite reason! To follow on from Bells' point, I think these people are just sisters under the skin.

Class issues are so deeply engrained in British society though, that I suspect we don't even notice them any more. We just take it for granted that life's like that, and can't be any different. The difference between the lives of the rich and the lives of the poor is just too great in Britain. They might as well be living in a different country. Britain's run primarily for the benefit of the rich, justified by the argument that what's good for them is good for all of us. That's fine until you hit your head against the glass ceiling that marks the boundaries of your class.

Enid - yes it is. Love the story of your taps!

I don't think the class system will ever be abolished as everyone is so predjudiced! Some of the middle-classes believe that poverty is abolished, and that everyone could get a job if they really tried. But unless you have lived on a council house estate and mixed with these people you know very little about them. The hopelessness and despair is very real and that's why a lot of them are unemployed, they feel that they have nothing to give, they are ashamed of who they are and often don't want to step outside their houses to face the real world. Mothers struggle with debts incurred whilst buying furniture for their houses, debts from loan sharks as no-one else would lend them money. Putting up with bailiffs knocking on the door threatening to take their kids toys away. Seeing their kids feet become misshaped and painful because they can't afford to buy the correct Clarks shoes for them, unless they take out another loan...

But then some working-classes think that middle-classes have no real worries, that they live in semi-detached houses with two cars and a large garden and would never talk to them or even acknowledge their presence. We all make judgements based on where people live, their accent, their clothes, etc. Some people who live the middle class life are actually drowning in debt and turn to alcohol and drugs to block out the misery. Some people live as working-class and when they die their houses are found to be stuffed with antiques and money.

I do think though Custardo that if the government give incentives for mothers to work (i.e. childcare tax credit) then they should also offer an incentive to mothers who want to stay at home, so that we have a choice at least. Ok some mothers might take the mickey, but you will get those anyway. Yes there are people who get pregnant to get a council house and child maintenance from their partners, I know of one girl who has done this and is now on her second child after said partner threatened to leave her (don't know whose the child is though). If she didn't have kids she would have been thrown out by her parents and probably living in a hostel somewhere so I guess she did what she had to just to survive. No doubt she loves her kids very much.

If the government treated us all equally we might get someway to abolishing the class system. But that's just like hoping for a miracle isn't it?

I want to pick up on some of Tillysmummy's points. You say that you resent paying alot of tax & aren't eligible for any tax credits. Presumably both of these things are because you have a high household income. Personally I would love to be paying lots of tax, because it would mean I would be getting a huge salary! And rest assured that when you're paying for a private education, you will in effect be being subsidised by other tax payers, as private schools have charitable status, and therefore get tax breaks that other businesses can't. This is worth £2000 a year per pupil (see Education Guardian 23/4/02). IMO removing this tax break should be about the minimum we could expect from a Labour government. And all this is apart from the huge gulf between the classes that private schools reinforce, as illustrated by Custardo. I think it's too simplistic to talk about "freedom of choice" when talking about education, like it doesn't impinge on anyone else.

Err, maybe I should have posted this on the thread about private schools.

BTW, as a southerner living in Scotland, people either think I sound "posh" or like someone from Eastenders!

Oh and I have crappy silver seventies taps that we probably will never replace. If they work who cares what they look like!

I agree with SML. Lovely ring to finish it off ! I guess you'll probably choose it and buy it yourself and he'll give you the cash !

Enid, that did make me laugh! Reminded me a little of the vintage sketch about being upper, middle and lower class - I think it was TW3, with the two Ronnies and John Cleese. You know: "I am upper class and look down on him because..." etc.

This might be completely wrong and is not a wind-up, just something I've heard and wondered if it's true. Did the government used to label people as being in a certain social class? Is the class system simply people's perceptions of what they and others are or is there (still?) something official?

(I'm from the US and it's been interesting learning about all this-- very different! We, of course, have our own strong prejudices, but not this particular one in this particular form, held with this particular vehemence.)

So, again, not a wind up, just wondering.

I don't think they pigeonhole in terms of class, because as this thread shows, its very hard to define. Consumer groups etc do group people in terms of their economic outlook, A, B, C, D, E, 1, 2, 3. I would have thought the govt would delineate people in terms of issues they are likely to vote for.

You can see which 'consumer group' you are pigeonholed as by going to upmystreet.com

Type in your postcode and look at the Acorn profile for your area.

Enid, thanks for that - I'd looked at UpmyStreet many times and never noticed the Acorn profiles. Under my area profile, I was interested to learn that weight training is particularly popular here - no-one I know even goes to the gym! and people are much more likely than average to visit zoos, theme parks and safari parks - well that part's true, I visited Godstone Farm today. Where do they get all these 'facts' anyway?

Can I just say, you simply can't tell what class people are in from their postings. I'm very interested to read what people say about their situation/background, because there is NO evidence of difference in the posts IMO. Is this evidence of the fabulously levelling effect of the net? Or just that people want to be/feel more different than they really are.

Hey Enid, it says we're type 26 - what on earth does it mean?

JJ don't worry, I have lived here all my life and I am getting an education re this country's class system. Never really thought about it much before this debate started on Mumsnet.

Enid looked up my postcode on upmystreet. Had quite a laugh, it classed us as probably living in a bed-sit! Also higher than average purchasers of dishwashers (?), drinking freshly ground coffee, eating fresh pasta etc. Very interesting. I am now starting to see where the information from some very bizarre market research questions I have been asked have been leading. They also said that the group they have pigeonholed us into would have lower than average purchases of freezers and higher than average consumption of frozen meals, work that one out! We have a freezer but it's not us eating the frozen meals, honest!

The Registar General set up the class system in the seventies I think it was, based upon mainly the job that you had, hence the term white collar worker and blue collar worker.

I was just thinking about what Custardo was saying about the little trivial things on Mumsnet. I think that's kinda nice to know that working-class, middle-class and upper-class still have those niggling worries such as how to cure nappy rash and what to give their kids to eat. No matter what class we are, we still need advice on these things and so on here at least, we are all equal!

Oh and Star you forgot the shell of a car permanently parked in the front garden, mother and kids wearing matching shell-suits and the Rottweiller in the front window!

unbelievable! apparently we're in a council estate full of dying pensioners with few cars who consume brown sauce & draught beer & enjoy bingo, betting & fishing! good god! (or should that be ecky thump? ) talk about your northern stereotypes!

This is quite funny. I live in an area of high ITV viewing, low likelihood (that doesn't look right) of anyone earning more than 20k or owning more than 2 cars.

Enid, thanks for the link. In my neigbourhood, people "enjoy radio commercials". Hilarious! Gin is also very popular, it informs me. Well, yeah, of course.

Apparently we buy above average amounts of flour and enter a lot of competitions.

just had another look, apparently, I drink sherry and also use more flour than average, I don't listen to commercial radio but do have replace my dishwasher frequently. Apart from the sherry and flour, it is actually scarily accurate.

My area is 'unclassified' - they have too little data on thi part of the Outer Hebrides to tell me anything. I suppose the fact there are only 4 houses in our village doesn't give them a lot to go on. We are outnumbered by the cows 2:1 and by the sheep by about 200:1 !!

My area has above average expenditure on windows!!!!! How bizarre.

i was outlining my own preconceptions when i was harping on about how trivial some of the threads seemed to be, however i have come to realise that this is a good support network for parents out there and that all our worries are relative - in fact been promoting mumsnet to a parent and toddler group i manage - might try and tap them for some money for the group ... well i can only try!
have been wondering tho.. how we got from herbs being the defining point for middleclassism to gold taps? i dont think i ever thought about my taps before!!!
and a thankyou to everyone for such a stimulating thread - i rarely get stimulated these days!!!!
ps wasnt marx and engles more socal communism than socialism?

But Rosy, It would cost the government more than £2000 to educate those pupils in the state system so it is still a net gain for the tax payer. Do you really think the state system could in any case absoorb the extra pupils given its parlous state?

Well then I'm right up there ladies, I knew there was something frightfully good about drinking Gin!!!! I must admit we have the horrible imitation marble taps in the bathroom, unfortunately nae money to change them at the moment as we are in the middle of increasing the cow stock here. One thing about the working class Shell Suit clad family, at least 14 Sky dishes, twee net curtains, broken glass in front door, and at least 3 inches of re-growth showing after the hopme highlighting kit went haywire!!!

Ha, ha, Tinker, you must live near me then!!
Tigger2, what's wrong with shell suits and 14 sky dishes - oops and my roots need doing...