I hate the expression full time parent!

[Jbr]

It is always the term given to parents who don't have a job. Well, lets be honest, MOTHERS who don't work. (Men don't get these labels do they? In fact the very idea that a man wouldn't work because he has children rarely seems to crop up anyway!).

But my point is, I saw Carole Smillie on the front on a magazine saying "Why I could never be a full-time mum" which I inferred as "Why I could never give up work" or something similar. I would hope even if she worked on the Moon 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, she would still be a "full time mum". In fact I wish she would go to the Moon and take Carol Vorderman (another woman who wishes she didn't work - believe it or not - and once said she wishes she could stay home and be a "proper" mother!!) with her. You are still someone's mother whever you are. Why do people think being a mother means one thing and being a dad means doing something else?

Sorry I just had to rant!

How can you tell if you are going to be a 'good' parent or not before you've had children in the first place?

Have a look at this story

I know a lot of people who had children at 16/17, my sister-in-law and my best friend to name two, and they are absolutely brilliant mothers! I think one of the things that makes them so good is that they are still young enough to be on the same wavelength as their kids, so they understand them better and tend to be more laid-back in their approach.

Some SAHM's like myself don't work as they would be financially worse off if they did. If I took an office job, I would have to pay to put dd into childcare which would cost more than office jobs pay round here. If I wanted to do some training, i.e. teacher training, the government would not help me with childcare even though they are crying out for teachers. So I have to wait until she is old enough to apply for a free nursery place and look for paid work then. In the meantime I am her sole teacher, carer, and entertainer, which is damn hard work I think!

I can understand though Custardo's point. When I used to go to the NCT coffee groups they were so mc it made me cringe. Big misted photo of family above fireplace, 10 times the amount of toys dd had, luxury organic biscuits, nice clothes, designer gear for their kids. They neither understood me or took the time to get to know me. When I volunteered to host a few groups at my house, no-one turned up. Yet these people are very highly opinionated and have very strong views on those of us they regard as 'working-class' but unless you've been in the situation Custardo is on about, you cannot really say much about it.

Rhubarb, what a bunch of snobs. People are often taken aback when we tell them where we live, although I think quite a nice old flat, they think no garden how disgraceful to bring children into that. Even more shocking isn't that next door to where the 'candlestick murder' took place (don't know anything about the murder but the old man who lives there now is pretty harmless). Hey it's always entertaining to have to remove the kebab from your car if it has been a heavy night in the town the night before! We will move when we can afford to move and prior to then if anyone doesn't like it, they can just keep away.

Scummymummy, oh what control!!!!. I am meant to be registering calves on the BCMS website, but the temptation to have a look, proved to much for little ol moi.

Middle class, what is "middle class" are these the families with the imitation gold taps in the bog and not the real ones!!!!! Sorry could not resist that. We have friends who are a bit "gold tappy" if you all know what I mean!!

Oooh maybe I am middle-class after all. We certainly have a mortgage on our scary flat! No gold taps mind you!

Surely imo gold taps and misted photos above fireplace are lower middle class, rather than middle class?

Growing your own herbs...ooo, bring on the guillotine for me, I'm guilty as charged.

Blimey, this became class war while I was out this afternoon! (taking ds for a walk rather than contibuting to society via taxation ) Elwar, interesting article.

Well said Aloha and Winne and incredibly well resisted Scummy - come on, you know you want to

Custardo I dont quite get your point about having been so poor you get the phone cut off..etc..
Are you claiming the moral high ground here?
I have a log fire and so far have not had the phone cut off. Does this make have a rebound effect on whether I am a bad or good parent?
Really not sure what your point is and hoping you will enlighten.
Thanks

wooooow! lol cant believe this response! i dont believe most teenage girls get pregnant on purpose. the ones that do get pregnant- and there are many of them particularly in poor areas, coucil estates etc i dont think made a concious decision - i think those people who decide to plan their pregnancy - make a conscious decision - i think the teenagers just dont care whether they get pregnant or not - becuase their life would only consist of working in a factory ( packing poster tubes at 2p per tube done that!) i do think educatio is the primary key to get out of the cycle of deprivation. i am a community worker - working on estates and in some households there are 3rd generation unemployment/ long term sick i am not saying there arnt jobs out there - cos there are but a lot of people through apathy through hopelessness decide not to take part in "mainstream society" whatever that is. children learn from their parents if you wheel and deal to get by on the social, parent not working there is a great possibility of this becomming a cycle, and there is usually massive debt incurred whilst u are on the poverty line , loan men who come to the door are very tempting, catalogues - u have no hope of paying and stores that dont do credit checks but charge you triple the price if you want a new bed or sofa ..... anyway am off on some other subject
i admire the first response of mum and fried egg scenario.
thaks to rhubabrb for support there and i must agree fuzzy pictures do define middle class - i prefer the herbs in the little window box tho! do hebs and chips go well together ? and would this make me middle class?
still we havent managed to come up with a solution between the lot of us - the point of the discussion still stands - if good mum who choses to stay at home ( like fried egg mum sorry fogot ur handle as am typing message) wants and perhaps deserves some financial support of govt for that choice, how do we seperate this and the girls who through whatever reason decied to have 3,4,5 kids on social with no interest in further training or education - there is stuff out there in most deprived areas - people like me are paid to set them up! so what is the dividing line - how is the government meant to tell the difference?

i dont think i could take the moral highground on getting my phone cut off - no not a definition of good/ bad parenting skills an analargy of povery was what it was ( not that i am suggesting everyoe on the breadline gets their phone cut off) it was an illustration of poverty i had mine cut off so many times i cant count! am not good at bugeting on a low income as you can guess - so i guess your suggestion that i am suggesting that by this benchmark that makes me the bestest damn parent in the whole of the world! lol well your right i dont do bad if i do say so myself!

oh dear log fire, if you have fuzzy pictures and a window box with herbs in - you are in danger of becomming middle class!

working class=good, middle class=bad? is that what is being said? slating the working class is not on, but slating the middle class is fine? just to clarify which stereotypes and prejudices are acceptable and which are not... could not resist the sarcasm i'm afraid.

sorry, but imo it is not your "class" which defines whether you are a good or bad parent, or a good or bad person for that matter... surely it is your values and how they are enacted in your behaviour?

To get the "class" bit out of the way, I'd count myself as middle (but don't know what sort of middle, small snapshots in frames rather than misty wall portraits/fresh herbs but no gold taps!!) Anyway, on BBC Wales recently there was a programme about a woman in Penarth who lived in a 3 bed maisonette with her partner and 7 kids. The kids were from 3 different relationships and ranged in age from 13y-18m, the mum was early 30s, partner mid 20s. Have to say that the attitude of these 2 left me spitting, and I've always thought of myself as quite liberal. Neither adult had ever held down a job, but nevertheless they kept on having kids even though they didn't have enough room or even enough beds for them. They were genuinely outraged that the council refused to help them, via rehousing grants etc..On top of this they had enormous rent arrears (I think when you're on benefit there is often a small shortfall between housing benefit and actual rent that you're expected to pay) which they seemed to think they shouldn't have to pay. Both adults smoked like chimneys (and no, I don't think people on benefits should have no "pleasures", but priorities?? ), they had a very flash PC and at Xmas they spent over £1500 on stuff from catalogues. Several of the kids only had those PE daps for shoes which must be useless during a wet Cardiff winter. I get so annoyed by people like this who don't seem to understand that everyone has to "cut their coat to fit the cloth".
Incidentally, my friend teaches at the primary school these kids attend and they are infamous, mum's attitude is that it's always someone else's fault....

So I'm guessing these are the sort of people custardo is referring to...BTW any views on the situation in Wisconsin where unemployed single mums don't get extra benefits if they have more kids and can't support them. At first I thought this was harsh but i'm beginning to feel that it's fair enough...Just have a general sense (possibly too many depressing cases at work), that personal responsibility is an alien concept to a growing number of people...

Bossykate haven't you noticed that it is perfectly acceptable to sneer at so called middle class habits (fuzzy family photo's as an example) but obviously you couldn't possibly be rude about any "working class" habits because that would be insensitive, snobbish etc etc. It amazes me when you see headlines in papers such as "Why I hate toffs". No other group could be targeted like this.

As someone who speaks more like Celia Johnson than Sonia from Eastenders, I have been frozen out from every Antenatal group and playgroup I have ever attended because I live in a largely white, working class area where flash types like me aren't welcome. Works both ways.

Hello "fried egg mum" here! Just to clarify my response was to Custardo's suggestion that no one here has been in the situation when they "worry about feeding their kids when financial situation changes and they have 2.50 left in pocket for a couple of loaves and 7p beans from aldi???". Although thankfully this has not been a long term situation for us, DH now working again, splashed out last night on a nice takeaway curry and a vintage bottle of Irn Bru , it does happen, even if we do happen to be here on Mumsnet debating the parenting issues of the day.

Living in an area of high teenage pregnancy and where factory working and the modern day sweatshops of the call centres make up the majority of the local industry I do feel sad. I do know of some young mums however that have kept on their job at the factory after they have had their babies. Once again though I think the choice should be there that every mum should have the option of staying at home to look after their children, obviously no government could make up a high earner's wage for them but as I have said before a small sum of money may be all that is needed to enable someone to make the choice. Do agree mind you with the comments that people should not keep popping out kids that they cannot afford to keep. I would love to have a big family but we have decided due to finances etc we should stop at two, although I do keep hinting to DH that three wouldn't be so bad!

BTW I am now away to do my on-line shopping with Tesco Direct and will no doubt pick up some organic fruit and veggies (they taste better) and maybe even some new fresh herbs to replace the dead ones on my windowsill!!! This saves me scaring people rolling about the supermarket aisles at 37wks pg!

Just another thought before I disappear into the cyber-aisles. Of course education is the key and everyone should have the opportunity to learn, and if they do not pick up the academics at least learn social responsibility. However if everyone in this country was highly educated academically then what would happen to British industry, we need these factory workers. If these sorts of jobs disappear altogether to countries who can do it cheaper then where are people going to work, this can only lead to increased crime and a further burden on the benefits system. If people are prepared to work, whether it be in a factory or as a SAHM, lets not knock them, even if they do need a little help with benefits!

croppy, yes absolutely.

croppy, yes absolutely.

Who's Celia Johnson?

Celia Johnson (I think) starred in the film Brief Encounter with Trevor someone or other. Very plummy 40's tones.

Fifties actress (Brief Encounter) with lovely plummy RP BBC voice.

Oh right. I think I have a vague idea of who you mean- am shockingly ignorant on the filmic front! Thanks WWW & Enid.

Croppy- I can imagine how that kind of accent might lead to you being ostracized- I live in a similarish sounding area- and I think it?s a great pity that people aren?t more willing to get to know the person behind the façade of accent, clothes, income, etc., whatever these are.

Having said that, it is one of my pet theories that upper middle class parents are doing their children a grave disservice by encouraging them to speak in a very plummy accent. It seems to me to be as big a handicap as speaking very ungrammatically, in terms of being able to socialise with the majority of the population and even accessing some jobs- especially if said child is called something like Rupert or Orlando or Fauntleroy. The trouble is that people hear that kind of accent and, especially if it emanates from a person with an unusually well-heeled name, think ?abnormally rich, doesn?t know anything about real life,? which may or may not be grossly unfair. I suppose the onus is on people to be less prejudiced, really, but I think that we?ll be waiting a long time for that to happen?