I hate the expression full time parent!

[Jbr]

It is always the term given to parents who don't have a job. Well, lets be honest, MOTHERS who don't work. (Men don't get these labels do they? In fact the very idea that a man wouldn't work because he has children rarely seems to crop up anyway!).

But my point is, I saw Carole Smillie on the front on a magazine saying "Why I could never be a full-time mum" which I inferred as "Why I could never give up work" or something similar. I would hope even if she worked on the Moon 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, she would still be a "full time mum". In fact I wish she would go to the Moon and take Carol Vorderman (another woman who wishes she didn't work - believe it or not - and once said she wishes she could stay home and be a "proper" mother!!) with her. You are still someone's mother whever you are. Why do people think being a mother means one thing and being a dad means doing something else?

Sorry I just had to rant!

Ok Croppy, I'm not suggesting that working mothers do not work just as hard as those who don't, I'm just questioning men's role in all of this. Yes, I accept some men are quite happy to do their equal share, but a lot don't. I have a few friends with kids who work, and yet their men just assume that they will also take most of the burden of housework, shopping, cooking, etc. And when it comes to social situations, the woman remains sober for the baby, she arranges the babysitter.
I know my man found it hard to adjust to his lack of freedom when our baby was born, he still wants to see his mates at the weekend, go to football, etc. That's fine but I have to arrange the babysitter if I want to go anywhere.

And actually, I think that being a mother equals working. I miss the interaction with other people, not talking about babies all the time, having a tea-break when I feel like it. I can't phone in sick when I have flu, or ask the childminder to take her for a couple of hours. Of course I realise that those mothers who work and look after their kids do more than I can ever know - but do the men? I hear a lot of you saying that once you get in from work the work of looking after your children starts - do your partners share this with you? Some of you will say 'yes', but I know a lot of mothers whose men still live in the prehistoric era. So whilst they talk of feminist rights and the demands of the mother in the workplace, their partners are no doubt lapping it up.

Just be careful that feminism does not cloud our minds to reality and we are not actually working against ourselves.

Just wanted to reiterate that I am 100% for choice on parents either working or staying at home. I just find comparisons between the 2 (in terms of degree of difficulty) pointless and unhelpful. It is much more positive to support each other's choices (although I can't resist saying that I haven't called in sick in the 18 months since having my child for the same reason as most other working parents - I know I have to keep a lot of "spare" sick days for when my child's carer is ill!!).

I do have our son for an hour and a half on my own every night when I get in but that's because my husband works longer hours than me. While I do most of the hosuehold chores, he certainly does his fair share of things around the house and in the garden while childcare is most definitely 50:50. I know not all men are as involved but surely the path to achieving that is through equality for both sexes, not by pigeonholing people as to whether they should or shouldn't work according to the gender. My husband greatly respects and appreciates the fact that I earn as much as he does and that I contribute equally to the household bills. He frequently tells me how lucky he thinks he is not to have to shoulder the burden, particularly in these days of crippling mortgages etc etc. But the main thing is, we are really happy with the balance in our lives and I must say, it's been great to read about so many mothers who have chosen to stay at home talking about how happy they are too. After all, that's what it's all about!!

Lisa, firstly - far from clouding views of reality feminism has been fundamental in clarifying women's position, changing gender politics and therefore the position of women (and men)in the twentieth century! We are not there yet, I agree (and thus - call me old fashioned -feminism still has a place but feminism has at least given women (and men) an element of choice and the capacity to change. An alternative to previous generations expectations. Good for you that you enjoy being at home with your baby but it isn't for everybody and this seemingly point scoring is simply destructive. I do believe we have moved beyond working as a political choice (in the same vain as lesbianism as a political choice is rarely contemplated these days). Feminism is so misunderstood!

Secondly, as regards to Fathers roles within the family, yes there are many men out there who expect women to do house work, child care etc., but equally there are many men who are as committed and whose input is as great within the family as their partner. My partner is one of those men. Whilst I am a SAHM (looking to return to work asap)beyond the hours that my partner works the childcare, the housework, the cooking etc., is absolutely shared. Neither of us enjoys ironing but I am better at it, so I do it. I hate washing up so he does the majority of washing up, both of us love cooking so who cooks is based on who gets to the kitchen first (here I have the advantage because of being a SAHM). As for the childcare he utterly involved, and hates the times he gets in past bedtime (which is such a contrast to how my father was with us). The point however, is that as Croppy and Tigermoth as well as others have pointed out, he is not unique. Most of my friends are within relationships like this. One friends husband is a 'househusband'. As a woman who has worked or been in full time education throughout my daughters life (now 11)I have to say that I've often heard women complain that there partner does not do enough domestically and then they tend to go on and say but his cookings terrible or he doesn't dust properly, etc., etc., surely this is significant.

Personally, my partner counts his blessings that he lives at this point in history and can, thanks to feminism, be hands on in our household.

Sorry to go on but I do feel very strongly that both feminism and men are being very misrepresented here.

Hear hear Winnie - well put!

Thanks Winnie, well put. I have the occasional grumble about my husband's deficiencies (we both work full-time outside the home) but reading Lisa's account of how men she knows behave reminds me that my husband is actually very good, especially at housework and cooking. Like Croppy's other half, he is appreciative and relieved that these days the full burden of financing a house purchase and keeping a family solvent does not fall squarely on him. His own parents' marriage in the 60s was an unhappy one in which his own mother gave up work in the expectation of having babies (before she even got pregnant in other words). She expected the family lifestyle to continue unaltered and the stress ultimately drove them apart and led to her husband's early death. I know that one parent at home, one in paid employment works very well for lots of households, but my husband knows from bitter experience that it can be destructive too.

Seems to me that everyone has a point here. Changes over the last 100 years have improved the lot of many families, by enabling women to make a greater contribution on the financial front and men on the home front but has increased the work load of women whose husbands enjoy the benefits of their wives working, but aren't ready to take a similar split of responsibility for domestic chores (both traditional male and female ones).

I have mentioned this before but in Austria if you are married to your partner you can get divorced if he/she refuses to split domestic and more importantly, financial responsibilites 50/50. A bit extreme but I understand the sentiments behind that law.

What I don't understand is that Austria have a right wing Government and yet this equality law is clearly very left.

I think I am being misunderstood slightly. Firstly I don't think that I am any better than any other mother just because I choose to stay at home with my baby. We are all good mothers in our own ways, so I am not point scoring at all. And it is great to hear that most of you have partners that are willing to share the burden of housework and so on.

I'm just saying that there are a lot of men out there who are still quite sexist, whether they are aware of it or not. I don't want to pigeonhole men, but we could go on all day about individuals so for the purpose of this discussion, they must be grouped to a certain extent.

It is mainly society that still sees women's place as in the home, we can see that by advertising, how many cleaning products are aimed at men? When we look at advertising, women are grouped into a)bimbos b)sexual objects c)housewives. I hate that car ad with Claudia Schiffer stripping, I think it's ludicrous that women are still exploited in this way to sell cars. But that's besides the point.

Feminism is by no means dead, but the greatest danger surely, is that a lot of women believe that it is, and there is nothing left to fight for. These so called 'superwomen' are just adding pressure to us to be perfect in every way, to succeed in the workplace as well as being a doting mother and loving wife. There is only so much we can do. I believe that women are being pressurised to go back to work after birth, by incentives from the government, positive advertising of these 'superwomen' and so on. It is fine if that is what you really want and you are happy with it, but for SAHM's, we feel we are being penalised for staying at home. I would get more benefits if I worked than if I stayed at home. And for some, work isn't an option as the childcare is just too much and family cannot help.

Please don't think that I am getting at working mothers here, I'm not. That you do two jobs is brilliant, and I admire you all for that. I just don't like society dictating what we should do all the time.

Does this make sense?

Yes, but would you call a man who has a partner, kids and a job a "superman". No. It isn't having it all, it's just what a man would consider normal. And being a wife is no different to being a husband really. There aren't certain duties a wife does and certain duties a husband does. I was watching an old sit-com (can't remember what it was) and it was implied that this woman was a bad wife because she didn't cook, but then neither did the husband, but nobody called him a bad husband.

I think we are all in agreement that there is still quite a degree of inequality in the workplace and on the domestic front, but come on! Things have moved on so much, even in the last generation, giving women much more freedom of choice - I think we will always find something to gripe about if we want to. As has been said before, it's all about balance and doing what's best for you in your situation. We are all trying to be 'good mothers', that's what it's all about, whether we work fulltime or are SAHMs, so we should be supportive of one another not judgmental of each other's choices.

I won't bang on about my husband, but we split everything more or less 50:50 (although I do the cooking otherwise we would live on beans on toast for ever).

sorry, no one is going to like this much but IMO you are not a full-time mum if you work...

Say you're a nurse and you work 10 hours a week, you wouldn't say you're a full-time nurse would you???

You are still a nurse...just not a full-time one, and to me it's the same thing...if you're not at home with your kids your still a mum, but not a full time one.

Back to the housewife/homemaker think tho, very patronising, it really belittles the whole parenting thing

Come on, who's going to be first to take the bait?

Tinker, I don't call myself Demented for nothing, I'll walk into the lions den and give it a go.

I am a SAHM, I am very fortunate to have the circumstances, some of them created, don't live in an expensive house, share a car with DH, like shopping for bargains etc as it is very important to both DH and I that I am at home for DS (and soon to be DS2). I also know that some mums have to work even although they do all of the above and I admire them for the juggling act they must have to perform every day.

I personally prefer being referred to as a full-time mum rather than a housewife, after all being a mum is the most important job that women have and I would rather have this acknowledged than the fact that I also wash everyone's dirty knickers and make the dinner etc.

I also feel that if I did work outside the home that I would not feel that I was a part-time ... and a part-time mum. Surely you are always a mum, at any time the phone could ring to say your child was ill etc and you would drop everything and go. However when at home with your child I would not imagine there would be many mums who would be worrying about how the office is coping without them and certainly if the phone rang saying they were in a state could the mum come in I don't think many would abandon everything and go the same way as you would for your child. After all this would be your day off from work, you can never have a day off from your child, even if they are in someone else's care.

If I ever have a babysitter (a rarity) I don't feel that for those couple of hours I am not a mum. I still worry about DS, think about him, perhaps phone the carer to check he is OK, buy him something if I am at the shops and if I was needed I would be straight round to him. I feel it is like when you have newborn baby and the realisation hits you that even when you go to bed you are still working, you cannot finish at 5pm and forget about it, even when your child is sleeping you are on call.

Just because you are not there for that few hours, can't surely mean that you are not a mum for those few hours. If I am still at home when my children go to school and they are away from me, does that then make me a part-time mum and a part-time housewife or layabout (chance would be a fine thing)?

You could, if you don't like the term 'housewife' (it sounds strangely 1950's now, I think!!) say you are a Household Management Executive.

Thanks Demented - it's so incredibly nice to hear a SAHM mum be so generous and sane about mothers who also work. I made the decision to work part time and from home when my son was born (and yes, I am very lucky to have a career that makes that possible). It's still not easy. My employers don't draw the same lines about phone calls, last-minute amendments that I do. I have to pay for childcare and my earnings have gone through the floor and yes, we do rather desperately need the money. Personally, even though my job is pretty rewarding I would happily give it up (and will do, when I win the lottery!) but in the meantime it's nice to see that working mums and SAHMs don't have to fight.

A point of interest here about being a nurse etc. Named nurses carry 24 hour resonsibility for the care prescribes for their patients - even when they are not there. Just like working mums

I don't understand why this is even an issue, except for fanatical feminists or labelists. If you cease to be a "full-time mum" because you work a few hours a week, what about when grandma gives you a day off, or the baby's having a nap? If you have to Be There every minute to be a Full-Time Mum, nobody qualifies...

We all do what we have to, or choose to, do - if that makes sense. If we want to stay home and can afford it, fine. If we can't afford it and go out to work, full or part time, then we do. If staying home with children all the time does our heads in then we can go out to work or, again if we can afford it, just send the little darlings to nursery and have some peace - these are the same class of choice, IMO, as where we live, and most people don't have a go at others about where they live, do they? (Or have I led a sheltered life?)
(wouldn't want to upset anybody...)

Janh, well said, I couldn't agree more.

Janh, I agree, who cares. I personally prefer to be with ds in his early years but I still work, just dont like the idea of somebody looking after him. I really dont have time to worry what title I should have, Im a mum and thats that. I must say though that when your career affects the emotional wellbeing of the children then that is when and what we should discuss, and ways to change it. I believe the children I look after have been emotionally affected by the careers of their parents, with neither prepared to address the situation, this is what I would call a part time parent.

Have never thought about this in the terms of full or part time mum before, and I dont see myself as either, just a working mum who loves my daughter to bits and would do anything for her.

A quick PS - thinking about this later, I realised jenny shoots herself in the foot with "10 hours is not a full-time job".

A "full-time" job in this country, unless you're self-employed (or a junior hospital doctor?) is 39 hours...how many hours do most mothers, even those who "work full-time", spend with, or working for, their child/ren the rest of the week? Quite a lot more than 39, I think...

I take Joe1's point about what she calls part-time parents, and obviously they do exist, but I believe they are in a tiny minority, and the vast majority of parents do what they have to do to get by but still spend as much time as they can, with and for their children.

IMO if you have a child/ren you are a parent. All of the time. Whether you are being paid to work in an office/elsewhere or not. And I do think the semantics are interesting.

I am at home looking after my ds. So here on mumsnet I describe myself as a SAHM, since that is the common terminology used on this site. I use the term here for want of a better description. But I do wish there was something that wasn't patronising and wasn't necessarily "full time parent", since I do see that this implies that those who work (paid, outside 'the home' etc etc, all usual qualifications) are part time parents (and IMO they're not). On the other hand, using the expression "full time parent" doesn't have to mean that all parents who work outside the home are part-time parents since this isn't an expression I've ever heard used.

On official forms I am not unemployed, since that suggests I am looking for a job and/or claiming benefits (I'm not) and I emphatically refuse to be described as a Homemaker or a Housewife due to the 50's overtones.

When I'm asked "what do you do?" I seem to answer "I'm at home with my son" most often and it does infuriate me that people sometimes say "oh, you don't work then?" As we all know, whether we're SAHMs or not, looking after our children is work. And SAH or not, we all do it.

I am interested to know what expressions other people use and whether anyone's found something better?

sorry if I've gone on a bit...

I usually say 'I work full time at home with my children'. But there does need to be a better way of putting it, because it does king of imply that those of us who choose to be at home with our children are somehow not as capable as those who 'manage' to work both in and outside the home. And I am sure I am not the only mother who does not work outside the home who is patronised by this. I wish people who do work (not counting mumsnetters here OF COURSE) outside the home would not seem to regard me as mentally deficient because I have chosen to stay home. I have serious postgraduate qualifications and resent that people (especially on the phone, and especially those who have no kids) think I have lost my brain or are in some way 'letting myself down' by being at home while my children are small.

Rant over - sorry!!!!!

I like the expression SAHM. I do think that in some ways I've "got it easy" - I have a great life, and love the fact that I've been able to be at home with the boys these past five years. It's a real privilege. Yes, I've got a good degree, yes, I had a good job, which I could have gone back to if I wanted. But I've got nothing to prove. If someone wants to be patronising, that's their problem. I've got a lot of respect for people who juggle both work and home, it must be incredibly difficult, and I chose not to do it.

I've done both now and I have days like those just gone where I'd give anything to be 'at home' with my kids as they were. I envy women driving off to the pool with their toddlers as I am going in to work. But other times I love my work when I talk to my friend with her colicky baby who's not given her a moment's peace since he was born. The grass is always greener..etc.

The thing is that we all know childhood doesn't last forever and one day they will leave, and what will you be left with? That, for me, is the bigger question. I don't want to be boring old Mum who's stuck in a safe domestic timewarp and not up to speed and only good for doing Uni washing once a term - yuk!

Whenever anyone tried the old put down ploy 'oh you don't work then?' I always said 'Oh you don't have children then?' and 2 facial expressions depending on the company (1)with a look on my face as if I'd smelt something very very nasty and (2)welling up with supportive tears as if I'd just found out that they've done IVF 7 million unsuccessful times. It usually puts an end to insensitive/patronising comments quite swiftly.

Apologies to anyone offended, but this is war!! Women should never ever make other women feel guilty for doing what comes naturally to them, be it unpaid babies or paid work, or both.