Grammar, spelling and the decline of the English language

[SoupDragon]

Moving from the Weird Habits thread, I thought I'd share my favourite typo, spotted only last week in Tescos where they were advertising Winnie the Poo play mats. This was both on the big print sign and the smaller shelf label.

My, how I sniggered in a puerile fashion!

StuartC - an interesting theory, but I think English started to lose its case endings well before the Norman invasion. In fact I am mildly annoyed at the idea that English peasants couldn't cope with case/verb form endings when Spanish, French, Italian and German peasants managed just fine!

On academic English - I agree. Just because a paper is about something abstract or difficult doesn't mean you have to make it more difficult by writing about it in flowery language. You get this in novels too - I like Will Self's stories, but I get too annoyed with the fact that he never uses a one-syllable word where a 15 syllable one will do.

Its doesn't have an apostrophe for the same reason that 'his' doesn't have one. If you can substitute the word his in the sentence and it still makes sense then don't use the apostrophe. If 'its' is short for it is, then it does have an apostrophe. I am also a huge fan or Orwell's writing on the English language and I don't think anyone could call him a snob. In fact, snobbery often leads straight to hideously mangled English in speech and writing. Clear, simple, direct and elegant writing is beautiful to read.

Does anyone else find that email is particularly conducive to poor English and punctuation? I find mine falling apart when I email.

Thank you aloha for putting that so simply.

Bobbins... am so glad I'm not the only one...

Joben, you think you have problems with 7 year olds? I still can't convince my 18 year old students that their name requires a capital letter on BOTH names. They seem to think one is sufficient.

So the dog ate the cat's food but the cat ate its food?

I confess to having lost the ability to spell and punctuate. Which is extremely embarassing given that I am supposed to be a writer of sorts. I know of several famous writers who have to rely on subs for this - but I am not famous and so cannot fall back on anyone. However, I'm keen to improve. Can anyone recommend good books for both?

Also, is there any way of spell checking your posts before you press post?

Ks, sticky out ears man is Andrew Marr - don't know what he says as I just end up being fascinated by the ears!

One of my pet hates is the use of the word 'product' instead of the correct noun - very common among company spokesmen/women on tv. For example a table manufacturer will talk of 'our product' instead of 'our tables' why do they do it?!

Oooh, never managed a cheesy grin before!

"At the end of the day...."

I detest that phrase. Stop it, stop it now.

pamina - I read somewhere that "liaison" is the most mis-spelt 8-letter word in the English language (or that it's the 8 letter word whioch most people couldn't spell, or something like that).

Willow2, yup, that's it. For correct usage, I like Fowler's English Usage (I think that's its proper title - it's always called just Fowlers). For inspiration I love George Orwell's essay on English i(will post when I can recall the title). It is particularly scathing of sentences he describes as like 'prefabricated hen houses' - eg ones entirely made up of cliches that emerge from the pen with no work by the brain - such as, 'At the end of the day, when all's said and done, the point is, we had to give in." Also, nearly all of that sentence, bar the last five words, are redundant, which is nearly always the case when using tired phrases. Orwell also said 'never use a phrase you have seen written anywhere else' which I think is wonderful advice. It makes writing feel very fresh. I always tell young journalists that. So you should never, for example, say that 'red is the new black' or 'think the unthinkable'. It ensures you never use a cliche and that your metaphors are really appropriate.

BTW I loathe office jargon too - at my old company we were supposed to refer to the magazines we worked on as 'brands'.

Sorry - 'is redundant'. Gah, see what I mean about email...

I agree KS. Regional pronounciation clearly doesn't fall into the same category as something that is gramatically incorrect.

bells2 and ks - but what about regional grammatical differences (i.e. dialect) ? Grammatically incorrect phrases can be correct in a particular dialect ( like "I ain't got none" in Cockney ).

Doesn't make them any less irritating when used by people who don't normally speak with that dialect though.

I'm no expert Lucy123 but I don't understand on what basis that could be deemed to be 'correct' gramatically?

ks - yes I meant in spoken English.

There are still dialects in English (defined as a regional form of English which includes its own words and grammatical forms), but many of these are dying too. Have you noticed that all dialects from Bournemouth to Cambridge have been replaced by standard English or "Estuary" (sub cockey) English. I find that quite sad. From listening to older people in Brighton, we've lost some interesting accents.

You may be thinking of a patois - which is like a dialect but with its own literary tradition (Scottish? Geordie? ). Neither dialects nor patois need to be unintelligable to other speakers of the language, but they can be.

I'm interested in Milanese though - it's funny how governments can feel so threatened by a minority language that they need to ban it. The same was true of Catalan, Basque and Galician in Spain bt all those languages are now thriving and supported by the state.

and bells2 - that's my point - who does defne "correct" usage? If its defined by the way people normally speak, then "I ain't got none" is correct for a Cockney. More usually though its defined by how the upper classes speak - but that's not fair!

Hi bells2 - it's correct in the sense that many people say it and we all understand what they mean. It comes down to the difference between prescriptive and descriptive grammarians.
This page explains the distinction quite well.