Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Other subjects

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Grammar, spelling and the decline of the English language

234 replies

SoupDragon · 24/02/2003 15:31

Moving from the Weird Habits thread, I thought I'd share my favourite typo, spotted only last week in Tescos where they were advertising Winnie the Poo play mats. This was both on the big print sign and the smaller shelf label.

My, how I sniggered in a puerile fashion!

OP posts:
bossykate · 26/02/2003 08:02

i would also like to add the misuse of "mute" for "moot", e.g. "it's a mute point". aargh!

WideWebWitch · 26/02/2003 08:26

bk, my dad was an English and drama teacher and even on his deathbed managed to spend a few minutes explaining to a doctor that she shouldn't have said 'mute' point when she meant 'moot' point

Bozza · 26/02/2003 09:15

Lucy123 I have been very interested in your points. Like you I did a linguistics degree and have been recalling my language acquisition course as I watch DS learn to talk - its fascinating having my own real life example.

Bron · 26/02/2003 09:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Bron · 26/02/2003 09:32

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

lucy123 · 26/02/2003 09:38

Bozza - me too!

I'm very proud today because she clearly understands "no" - occasionally stops doing things. I've been making a note of the sounds she can do too - must get round to looking up what the experts think they are.

ks - well done for rembering that reference. Wasn't it Lowth who also declared the double negative to be wrong? Many other languages have it.

Finally my pet spelling hate is "advise" for "advice" - people I work with do it all the time!

aloha · 26/02/2003 10:17

What about discrete (meaning separate) used when the writer means discreet. I see it a lot, even in broadsheets etc.

lucy123 · 26/02/2003 10:20

Yes Aloha, that too. Also practice/practise.

But perhaps we should be directing our anger at the system of spelling rules which produces so many errors!

aloha · 26/02/2003 11:06

I agree our spelling system is famously tricky, but despite similar spellings and identical pronounciations these word shave very different meanings. We have more words expressing more subtleties of meaning than any other European language (I wouldn't be surprised if we also beat world languages). I think that's wonderful and explains why there is such a fabulous canon of literature in English.

Tinker · 26/02/2003 11:39

My French teacher will always argue that French is a more expressive language and yet when I ask the word for 'bury' she'll say 'inter'. If I ask her the word for 'inter' she'll say 'inter'. She has recently come round to saying that English is great for just making up words eg 'dhead', in French you would have to say 'the man with the d on his head' - sure they have their own equivalent but YSWIM.

Now, excalamtion marks. I use then a lot, incorrectly. But what other punctuation is there for expressing incredulity, surprise etc?

lucy123 · 26/02/2003 11:46

Yes true, Aloha. I think it may be the other way round though - we have such an enormous vocabulary because we have so much great literature (and also because the English language is the biggest tart in Europe in terms of borrowing words - as Tinker's example shows).

anto · 26/02/2003 14:14

Aloha, I was going to mention the discrete/discreet mistake myself till I saw your posting! I find mail-order catalogues and home-interior magazines are particularly bad offenders e.g. 'In the hall a discrete slimline radiator provides plenty of heat and is also a stylish addition to the decor'. Most irritating.

SueW · 26/02/2003 15:11

Would someone explain the difference in the use of 'dilation' and 'dilatation' to me please?

JanZ · 26/02/2003 15:45

Part of the prorblem with "liaise" is that Microsoft has it wrong in their spell checker (ie it corrects to "liase/liason" ): I keep on meaning to contact them to tell them!

As regards whether it is just snobbery to be pedantic about grammar, my mum's argument is that what is important is clarity of communication. Many of the rules are there to aid comprehension and reduce ambiguity.

Therefore, the use of dialect/patois is fine in the local environment as long as you are aware that you are using it and can "translate" into standard English when appropriate.

By the same logic, the use of a split infinitive is OK, as often to avoid it clumsily will in itself alter the meaning or emphasis. It's interesting that I don't think any of the "grammarians" here has (or should that be "have"?) supported the rigid avoidance of split infinitives.

One of my (other) bugbears here in the West of Scotland is the incorrect use of the past particle: for example on TV last night a spokesman for East Renfrewshire Council said something like "We have went to an indepedent valuer". Aaaaagh! The worst thing is, they don't even KNOW that they've said anything wrong! Another common one is "I seen ....." That is when I become (more of) a snob: it just makes the culprits sound un-educated.

I too learnt the majority of my grammar via Latin and other foreign languages - but I also had a strong influence at home, plus, I suppose, a curiosity about how languages are put together. I even enjoyed learning about gerunds and gerundives!

Isn't it interesting to have Tech making comments - he's suddenly become a real person with his own opinions, instead of just the genius who keeps this site running so smoothly!

JoAnne427 · 26/02/2003 15:46

I have a story for you - this happened a very long time ago, when I was in college, but I still remember it...

In school, I studied Political Science. I had a friend who I met in my classes. A bright girl - but tended to use words unnecessarily in an effort to sound smarter. But that's another story.

We were in a debate at Harvard University. Mind you, my school was nowhere near the status of Harvard, but we managed to get in, somehow. It was a mock United Nations - we were representing Zimbabwe. Well, she got up, and began discussing the coups in Afghanistan. Only, they weren't coups when she said it - they were "coops" - like a chicken coop. Oh, and she said the word several times - with a Long Island, NY accent. All those darn "coops" in Afghanistan. We were mortified for her. But we all had a good laugh over it later while drinking beer in Boston.

Another time, she had written in a paper that "documents had been fornicated," not fabricated. We still get a kick out of that one!

And just the other day, I got busted for saying "pedagogical" wrong...

And the friend? She is now a very successful attorney in Manhattan, and is a visiting professor at a University there - so I guess things turned out okay for her!

NQWWW · 26/02/2003 16:43

Is Tech a "he"? I had assumed he was a "she".

slug · 26/02/2003 16:51

Aah JoAnne427, reminds me of a notorious episode at the college I work in where a student wrote on his UCAS form (university application) that he wanted to go to university, study accuntancy and become an accuntant.

Tinker · 26/02/2003 18:41

Tech is most definitely a 'he'

ks · 26/02/2003 19:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

ks · 26/02/2003 19:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

aloha · 26/02/2003 19:36

Is dilatation a word? I've never heard of it. Slug ...tee hee, snorty giggle.

CER · 26/02/2003 20:32

I know that this question probably won' be phrased correctly in terms of grammar but...

Why does does the sign on London Underground say "St James's Park" and not "St James' Park"?

... and lots of you will probably hate the ".... " as well.

CER · 26/02/2003 20:33

Whoops, meant won't

ks · 26/02/2003 20:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Chinchilla · 26/02/2003 20:55

I believe that it is grammatically correct when the name ends in an 's' to use either s' or s's. e.g. Charles' hat/Charles's hat.