Grammar, spelling and the decline of the English language

[SoupDragon]

Moving from the Weird Habits thread, I thought I'd share my favourite typo, spotted only last week in Tescos where they were advertising Winnie the Poo play mats. This was both on the big print sign and the smaller shelf label.

My, how I sniggered in a puerile fashion!

Sorry to jump in, but I really get irked when people try to sound posh and "correct" and end up making errors as a result. I think "yourself / yourselves" in non-reflexive sentences - "We'll discuss it with yourselves" -comes from this, as does "from Jane and I" instead of "from jane and me". I think people get so used to being in trouble as kids for saying "me and Jane are going out" instead of "Jane and I are going out" that they end up mis-applying the rule. I think that might be where "haitch" comes from as well, as people fear dropping an H and sounding common. I love "innit" though. I guess people for whom English isn't a native language just made it up to compensate for English having no easy way to make a tag question - such as n'est-ce pas or these days just "hein" in French, or verdad in spanish. The Americans do the same with "right" of course, as in "You're going to be there, right?" Something about email makes typos more likely I think. I don't know what it is, but I caught myself putting an apostrophe in a possessive "its" the other day. bad bad.

... tech bores on indefinitely - one of my pet fascinations. Those two Steven Pinker books - "The Language Instinct" and "Words and Rules" are really great reads for anyone interested in all this stuff.

Interesting stuff tech. Ex dh tells me that in his case he uses 'innit' as an English substitute for the Gujarati 'henna' (not sure of the spelling) since there's no English equivalent. Well, unless you count 'innit'! He's worked for an American company for some time now though and now tends to use 'right?' more often. So I think you've got a point with the n'est pas? etc stuff.

I've got 'Words and Rules', very accessible. Bit reluctant to contribute to this thread though, since I am paranoid about spelling and grammar mistakes and cringe if I look back and spot some appalling ones I have made.

Sometimes I like to deliberately use split infinitive to show that it's ok. I always write 'I should' instead of 'I would' as well. But these all stem from insecurity about use of grammar so I cling on to the bits I think I know. I really don't remember getting many lessons in/on grammar and the bits I have picked up have been, mainly, from studying foreign languages. But do REALLY hate the Stockport 'we was' and 'was yer?'

message withdrawn

I used to live in Plymouth and they say 'where's that to?'. I never knew if they meant to or from.

robinw - on some things you're right - people get wound up about what is correct because they feel that the alternatives are made by not-the-right-kind-of-people. Like I say, I would include people who get hot under the collar about split infinitives in that. Other things I can kind of see. I know language changes but I can't help feeling that we're losing something when I hear someone say "disinterested" when they mean "uninterested" for example - not because knowing the difference makes me feel clever or posh (well, it does a bit!) but because the difference is a very useful one.

However in general I agree with tech - the one thing worse than pedantic grammarians (or even rogue apostrophe users) is people who use a posh-sounding phrase in the wrong context. I know someone who took to saying "is it not?" all the time even when the normal thing to say would have been "is it?" ( "It isn't teatime yet, is it not?" Arggh!)

I think tech is talking about people who try to overcomplicate language in an attempt to prove some imagined superiority. Hyacinth Bucket and my FIL spring to mind.

My pet hate is Kids Klub, Kosy Korner etc. Oh, and people who use foreign expressions where perfectly good English ones exist. It's just so passe... (damn, can't do accents on this laptop!)

yeah babster and what about management-speak terms where perfectly good ordinary words exist ("specialism" for "speciality" in particular).

Oh dear, I've just read this thread and feel like a right dimwit now. I thought I was quite good at grammer and all the stuff that goes along with it but I can honestly say I haven't a clue what you're talking about when you say things like split infinative and when and why shouldn't there be an apostrophe in its.
I'm really paranoid now incase I've written something wrong but I didn't think I was that thick, maybe I should have changed my nickname before posting this then you'd never know it was me

Interesting thread - I learned my grammar from studying Latin at secondary school (no grammar in English in the trendy 70s, just interminable Ted Hughes and R S Thomas poems).
Lucy, you have an informed perspective on these things - are there aspects of Spanish grammar which are breaking down as fast as, for example, correct apostrophe use in English? I just wonder if our European cousins are seeing their language move away from "standard" spelling and grammar too.
Silly spelling mistakes upset me, I have to confess, but I love the texture and variety that phrases from different cultures and regions in the UK and around the world add to spoken and written English. I think it demonstrates what a dynamic and flexible language it is. I love France and all things French but the idea of an Academie Francaise regulating acceptable grammar and spelling leaves me cold.

EmmaTMG - to put you out of your misery, you should only have an apostrophe in it's when it is short for "it is" or "it has". When its is possessive (The cat didn't like its food), then there is no apostrophe. It's an arbitrary rule just to distinguish the two really.

A split infinitive is an infinitive (to go, to walk) with another word in the middle (to boldly go). But the point most of us are making is that it's a pointless rule anyway.

hope that makes you feel better.

What's a split infinitive then?

Marina - glad someone's interested in my ramblings!

And Spanish is changing, although as a foreigner I'm never sure which forms are new forms, and which are errors. In writing, you get few errors as Spanish writing is almost phonetic - the only thing is that people leave out Hs or write "b" for "v".

In speech, people use the subjunctive less - I think - than it says they should in the books (hoorah for that - it's far too complicated!) and sometimes use a different verb form. Finally you hear people moaning about South Americans using the polite form instead of the familiar form for "you" in the plural ("ustedes" instead of "vosotros".

Finally (and this does bug me) the Spanish are forever pinching English phrases and using them wrongly. There is a Halfords type place along the road called "Center's Auto" (not owned by a man called "Center". Also there is a famous English school called "Opening" - I can't get used to that!

Management speak, oooh! I remember writing "incorrect time prioritisation" (or some such tosh along those lines) in a table I was preparing to explain why we'd cocked up! I know it's dreadful and I hated doing it but honestly, it was what the company wanted. In case anyone wants a translation it was supposed to mean "we were late. And a bit crap."

www - you really should have written the English translation.

I used to have a friend who described his job as being a "vehicle hygiene maintenace operative". He cleaned cars. He was being funny but I think his boss was serious!

Thanks Lucy123. That's my lesson done for today.

I know what you mean about the East Anglian dialect/language - having moved here two years ago & I am sure I am thought of as a snooty cow because of the way I speak!!

I really hate the way so many people can't write a proper business (or any, come to that) letter - I used to work in customer relations & you wouldn't believe some of the letters we received!! Also, why do so few people (adults & children) write thank-you letters these days?

On corporate speak and flowery language:

I applied for a job once doing communications for a high street bank and had to write a 'why I want this job' blurb. The application went through my manager as I was already working in one of their branches and he told me that I should make this change and that change but I said that was his writing not mine and this was my application.

I got the job. They wanted someone who would cut through the flowery stuff the head office bods put out and turn it into plain English to be understood by everyone from office junio to chairman.

DH tells me that when they are on projects with certain consulting firms, he and some of his colleauges like to play Bullsh*t Bingo. They have a list of words that they are fairly certain will appear during meetings and tick them off along the way. Is this a popular game elsewhere?

We used to call it Buzzword Bingo but same rules. It's funny how you suddenly start to see particular words everywhere - last few yeras I've noticed robust and audacious all over the place. Goals are always audacious these days. My real pet hate is 'tasked' to do something. It has to be made up. Why can't someone just be told to do it?

Re: its/it's etc. I just replace its with his or hers if I'm dithering about it. If it makes sense it's its.

As I've just said on the other thread Lose and Loose is my pet peeve, dunno why just irritates the hell out of me!

Having said that my grammer is non-existent, despite doing English (Lang and lit) at A'level, AND having a really pedantic Dad! Apostrophe use is about the extent of it. I do go out of my way to say "bored of..." as opposed to "bored with..." whenever my parents are around just to irritate - my dad is always picking me up on my grammer

SueW - yes, we used to do that at work too!! Especially when consultants were around - wonder how much they earn for each pseudo-phrase - my pet hates are those trendy expressions 'in the loop', a 'raft' of ideas, 'think smart' etc etc ... we had a huge cost cutting exercise & the key phrase was 'think smart' - I asked my boss to give me some practical examples ..... of course he couldn't!!

I have to say that I think grammar and spelling are important. Not only is language a tool for communication, but it can truly be beautiful if used wisely. But I grew up with an Italian mother who speaks English better than all of us put together. She still corrects me now...everytime I call her she says "how are you?" and I say "good" and she says "well" (one being an adjective and the other an adverb...i think). I also had two years of latin, 7 years of french, 3 or 4 of Spanish, a few of Italian, 3 of Japanese, 1 of Chinese....the point being you have to know your grammar to learn a foreign language. I also think it's ok to break the grammatical rules if you know you are doing it and it's for a specific effect. I also think that it is acceptable for there to be a difference between spoken and written English. And the interesting thing about email is that because of its immediacy it ends up falling somewhere between the two.
One thing I am very interested in is where the boundaries lie between slang, dialect and plain old incorrect grammar. For example, my husband who is from Hartlepool says things like "me mum" as opposed to "my mum" or "them ones" rather than "those ones" or "learn him" rather than "teach him."

Lucy123, my mother complains about the American (particularly the younger generation) using the rising intonation too.

So tech, I've been on mumsnet for almost a year now and I think this is the first non "tech" thread that I have seen you participate in. Hmmm wonder what the significance of that is? (is that a dangling something or other?)

As I've just said on the other thread Lose and Loose is my pet peeve, dunno why just irritates the hell out of me!

Having said that my grammer is non-existent, despite doing English (Lang and lit) at A'level, AND having a really pedantic Dad! Apostrophe use is about the extent of it. I do go out of my way to say "bored of..." as opposed to "bored with..." whenever my parents are around just to irritate - my dad is always picking me up on my grammer