Offensive/degrading to women, or all in good fun?

[Earlybird]

At the hairdresser yesterday, a woman was telling her stylist (in a very loud voice) about her company (she obviously wanted everyone to hear as clients were/are her 'target' market). She teaches classes, and does 'many private parties for hen nights, birthdays' etc.

At the end of her appointment, she gave the salon owner (who was doing my hair), a large stack of business cards and asked if he would put them in the reception area. When the woman had gone, the owner asked what I thought of her company, and whether it would be 'good fun' to place her cards up front.

The woman's business? Female only classes where students are taught to pole dance, lap dance and do 'aerobic' striptease (though she hastened to add, no one strips off completely in class).

Your opinion?

these are a few comments i have found on MN and it seems most lap dancers do not feel exploited or degraded at all. of course you get the odd lap dancing club which goes a step too far and is more like a brothel but most are all above board cos they are policed and checked regularly.

"With regards to 'strip clubs', I would have no real problem with it being a once in a blue moon type thing. I used to be a lap dancer when I was 18 and I know that the majority of the girls are either married with kids, in a LTR, or just generally quite 'pitying' of the clients!"

"i think you do underestimate the intelligence of some women sometimes. There was a fascinating debate on Five Live about lap dancing clubs where a lap dancer angrily asked people to stop judging her. She was an intelligent articulate person, earning three times more than I do. She was about as empowered a woman as I have ever heard interviewed. She certainly did not sound in the least bit exploited."

"And on the body thing, I think most people think that the dancers are all like something out of Baywatch (showing my age here!) Some are of course, but the vast majority certainly aren't. One of my housemates at uni worked as a dancer for a while and whilst she's not un-attractive she'd be absolutely nothing like you probably have in mind."

"Tamba - I used to be a lap dancer, pre DH and kids, the girls I worked with were really normal , not man-eating nympho husband-stealers . So please don't worry about anything untoward happening with the dancers, it is v unlikely. To the majority in that line of work it is just a job. I honestly don't think that he will compare the bodies of the dancers to yours, if that is what you are worried about. He loves you . He may well get there and feel embarrassed by the gyrating flesh, some guys really do."

"I was a lap/pole dancer for a while pre-DH and kids. I was not exploited, the money was good and I was well looked after by my employer. It did not lead to me posing in The Sun, then in Loaded, then in Razzle, then on screen. It is not 'guaranteed'"

"i didn't feel expoloited myself and the club i worked for protected its girls fearsomly but there are clubs that do exploit foreign girls, less so now that they're quite well policed and regulated."

"One of the girls in my local Ann Summers shop (shh) is training to be a pole dancer. She is lovely, I would never describe her as sleazy. She wants to earn the maximum money she can by using what she has been given."

na - tbh I think the exploitation arguments are stromgest when applied collectively. I am sure it's true that there are many lap-dancers that don't, as individuals, feel exploited. However there is a strong argument that lap dancing is indicative of a broader issue within our society with women objectified, women putting on shows for men, sex something for men to enjoy. it's based on a very male-centric view of how things work. and this is the kind of thing that feeds into much broader issues of discrimination - from bearing the greatest responsibility for childcare to hugely disproportionate prison sentencing for women who trangress social rules compared with men, to mysogynistic killings of women working as prostitutes. To cite lap dancing and strip clubs as relevant to discrimination is not underestimating the intelligence of the individual women involved, neither is it patronising. It is citing an example of just how male-centric our world still is.

I'd be interested in learning pole dancing/belly dancing (I draw the line at learning to strip) if it would tone up my tum but I'd be loathe to advertise these classes in a hairdressers. I'd be worried about putting off my customers who didn't approve or misunderstood the advert.

lap dancing for fun is like imitating the KKK for fun - um, I think it is getting all a bit out of hand isn;t it.

Pole dancing does not have to be about exploitation.

I am not denying that there are awful sides of the sex industry and I would fight tooth and claw (and have done) to errsadictate these elements - however, by condemming anything related to the sex industry as being about exploitation is in some ways clouding and expanding the issue.

One of my freinds is a podium dancer and one of our mutual colleagues made reference to her being a lap dancer and letting men touch her and it was offensive. Lumping all these thigns together loses all meaning.

How the feck did you mad ott women get to link pole dancing to the KKK..? .

Totally ott and unfair. If women feel the need to pole dance than thats their choice, whether then then decide to do that as a "job" again is their choice.

Not all lap dancers are destined for a life of prostitution. Obviously not the best example BUT Jodie Marsh used to be a lap dancer..is she a prostitue (I hate her btw, so before you all start making harsh comments about her etc...Im asking "accept does she physically stand on the street corners or advertise herself for cash as a prostitute would..?) Yeah maybe she "porns" herself in other ways.

So come on, noone answered me about Ann summers parties..? Those of you against lap dancing do you attend/hate these type of parties.? Surley these are wrong as you could possibly buy a vibro to enjoy sex with your dh or a kinky nurses outfit blah de dah...

Any what about deta von tease..? Burlesque dancers/clubs..? Agree or disagree..? Aren't these similar to pole dancing clubs..? What wrong with women accepting their sexuality and figures and doing something that probably makes them feel sexy at the same time.

Sheesh..you will be wanting all women to wear head to toe bags next for fear of showing off our fine figures to the other sex. Get a grip and live and let live.

for me personally would not do pole dancing thing - not my taste. Am going to see burlseque show in brighton in a few weeks - i like that kind of thing.

I loathe the idea of an ann summers party.

I love the way strip shows have been repackaged as 'burlesque'.
But of course it;s ok because it;s all so arch and knowing.

LOL dittany, I don't think she intended to do it in front of the kids fgs!!

Thing is, who is it that watches women doing these things? Men. And does anyone really think that men are appreciating strip shows or pole dances for the aerobics and art form?

It's just a way for men to look at naked women, especially naked women doing strenous exercises so they can see a bit more. They pay to sit there and ogle whilst a woman of their choosing, dances with her tits in front of him.

It's all about control. Women may say they are being liberated, but they are still providing a service for men, men who pay to choose which lady dances for them, men who are probably married and whose thoughts are far from feminism.

I am only guessing, but I suspect the pole will be removeable, like those bars that go across doors? Geez...

And anyway, what is wrong with doing a little dance for your OH, to show him how sexy, beautiful, ravishing you are, like a peacock displaying their feathers? If you want to get feminist about it you can insist he does one too!

the peacock displays his feathers to attract the peahen.
the peahen don't need no flashy feathers or stripper heels.
my sexuality has nothing to do with stripping off and acting like a sex worker.

but if someone wants to act like a stripper - then i say whatever floats your boat.

I can see how some women might be stupid enough naive enough to think that stripping/ pole dancing/ even prostitution can be empowering and all about choice and irony. What they need to know is that if a woman is stripping in front of a man he is probably not spotting the irony/ empowerment/choice. He is seeing a woman as a sex object. He is seeing a woman whose only value is to titillate him. This is not a good message to give to men about women or to give women about other women. Also, as pointed out the women who really depend on the sex industry to make their living are rarely doing so through choice or enjoyment.

I think my main point is that it's not just about individual 'choice'. Just as images of size zero models has an impact on how both men and women see other women and themselves (and the impact of skinny models is evident in the distorted body images of girls aged 8 if you watched that Robert Winston programme the other night) and expectations for women. So it's the same if some women are presenting themselves as sex objects who love titillating men. This reflects badly on all of us.

Intelligent, articulate women may well lap dance and be able to justify it but they are lying to themselves. They are doing it for money-the age old reason that women have sold their bodies in various guises.If they are doing it purely to be empowering and to be free to express their sexuality they need to ask themselves if they would do the job for the minimum wage. I suspect that for the majority the answer would be no!
If you are trying to earn a lot of money in a short time you should at least be honest about it.It is not liberation when you are providing a service for men.

not read whole thread but what harpsi said on p 1

I have looked back to page one and agree totally with harpsi.

Blu your post about lap dancing and reindeer herding is hillarious

THIS is the pole dancing of the region, it is called Halling, and you can see, they dont undress

Well, they have a stick?....

I would seriously consider this sort of dance to get fit, but Pole dancing? It would make me feal a little seedy to go to such lessons...

but the pole dancing thing we were talking about was not to be done in front of men.

The peacock analogy was not meant as an analogy of a woman attracting a man, it was an analogy of a mate attracting a mate irregardless of sex, I was actually going to write I know it is the peacock and peahen thing blah blah but didnt see it relavant to my point.

What I don't understand is, why is it so offensive for women, or men, to do things, whether it be dressing up, involving "props" or doing a little strip that would make them more sexually attractive to their partners? No-one on here has made me question my initial thoughts when I read the thread, that it is not degrading/ offensive for a woman or group of women to learn to strip/pole/lap dance. I mean, maybe I have the wrong end of the stick but I believe the lessons to be for either exercise, spice up the bedroom or just a bit of fun and are not vocational courses??!!!

Maybe I just need to go and dust off my Carol Ann Duffy and UA Fanthorpe before I start gyrating round the bedpoles!

So this pole dancing lark isn't the jolly one on the village green where children skip in and out weaving ribbons? I'd quite like a lesson in that. Do I have to wear special shoes?

Unfortunately, I'm far more likely to be doing this kind of dancing than trying to slink round a pole in simulated sexual abandon.