FAITH SCHOOLS! If you don't agree with them, step this way, my dears.

[onebatmother]

What can be done?

It seems to me that many of us don't agree with them, and some of us (not I) are quite knowledgeable about the ins and outs.

Could we not start a movement?

It's all so wrong, really, isn't it?

I think the solution is to follow the French model and take all faith education out of the state system. So faith schools become independent and charge fees to cover their costs.
I'm C of E (the Established Church of England at present) and am uneasy about the whole church school thing.

Exactly scienceteacher - that's exactly my point. Both these very different things get taught to kids at school - where they are supposed to be and think they are being) taught the truth. Any one religion isn't the truth, it's one spiritual view out of many competing views, and it's not based on evidence.

There's a lot of worse things your kids can get up to than becoming Christians, you know. It's not a bad thing.

They aren't really taught religion in an academic sense. It's more of an attitude - a good one at that. There is really nothing to fear.

Fiodyl, I'm sorry but that argument doesn't make sense to me. If that is the school's role then it would have to educate the child on all religions/belief systems so that he/she could make an informed choice ...

ScienceTeacher, you should be proud that you do teach proper science, but not everyone does.
And sadly there is an overlap. When the kids leave your classroom someone may tell them that God made the world and it works because he makes the rain fall etc and undermine your efforts.

What will you do if one day the head comes to you and says "look there is no need to go into the facts about origins/dinosaurs etc. just stick to the recent stuff so as not to upset the board of governors"

UQD - Well actually all public services are discriminating. Childless couples might resent the educational spend. Philistines might think all art is shit and resent any spending on that. People who never use the library might think the library is a waste of money.

Not to you ST! But it is to me, it really is. Of course I totally defend the right of any child of mine to choose whatever religion they like - it's their life, not mine. But to train a child in religion alongside teaching them actual facts seems so wrong to me. I's confusing, it's misleading. One minute they're learning about triangulation, the next they're being told Jesus died on the cross for their sins - they're going to take both of those things as equally valid, when they're not. Do you see my point?

Tell me about it ScienceTeacher
I am amazed at the general hostility towards Christians these days - not just on MN, in society in general, it does make me sad
Most of the practising Christians I know are generous, liberal, broadminded people...not hate-fuelled, bigoted snobs

well educated children will be able to find out about religions and make informed choices about which if any they choose to belive in when they are adults

Well for myself I'm hostile to all religion equally, if that helps. Not because I hate Christians - I too know some lovely ones - but because I'm a rationalist and religion is not based on any reality that I can see. Also, although I dislike religion a great deal, I'm not intolerant of religious people, as long as they don't attempt to mpose their views on others. But that is where faith schools come in. They are about imposing religious views on small children. That is indoctrination, there's no other word for it.

It's really very easy to separate out the biblical account from the latest scientific theory. I don't have trouble with it at all. I am probably in a better position than many science teachers in that I have a personal interest in theology, so can talk about young-earth vs old-earth creation etc. I can certainly talk about things that I don't personally believe in, which is one of the skills that we try to teach pupils - to understand someone else's arguments, even if you don't share their views.

One thing that I am certain of is that young people are very interested in the faith angle. For example, last year I was doing maternity cover at a non-faith school, and had to teach the part of the GCSE syllabus about Evolution. I think my first lesson on the topic was totally hijacked by pupil questions about the Genesis account etc. They did not have much knowledge but they were hungry for it. I was very glad to be a Christian teacher in that situation because I was able to deal with all their questions.

Of course christians can be nice people and so can muslims etc, but we are not asking you to stop being christian. We are saying we don't want our schools controlled by any group that teaches unproven stories as true. I'd feel just the same if the local schools taught that fairies made the world.

whereas children who have been taught that 'this is the truth and if u dont believe in it something bad will hapen to you' wont have many choices at all

fiodyl, every Christian alive today is one because someone told them about it. Children do not pick it up by osmosis - they have to be told the Good News. The reason that Christians are passionate about telling others is because we recognise the life changing power of the Christian faith, and we were commanded to.

Having been to a C of E primary myself followed by a Catholic convent school, I find some of the representations of faith schools on here ludicrous. Never, ever did any Christian doctrine bleed into lessons or interfere in any way with the teaching of either science or humanities.

It is quite clear to even a quite young child that there is a fundamental difference between the metaphysical or spiritual beliefs that are promoted in church and the evidence-based knowledge that is taught in lessons.

What is a real issue is that these schools are allowed to apply their own obscure selection process and discriminate against whichever children they like in the name of religion.

Religious views are not "arguments" that can be argued against scientific understanding. They are beliefs that are not based on anything except tradition and doctrine. I'll happily tolerate someone else having irrational, superstitious beliefes - it's very common - but it's not on to behave as if those beliefs constitute a sensible argument when it comes to something like evolution. They're just not anything to do with itand that's what schoold should be teaching. For example, the evidence is for evolution. If you want to believe in a different creation story, fine, but it's nothing to do with science and should be nothing to do with school - except of course as an object of study in comparative religion/philosophy/ethics classes, where all religions are treated equally and seen for what they are - belief systems.

I agree with marina. About church schools and about hostility towards Christians.

Au contraire libidoless, I am immensely tolerant of others' beliefs. I don't have any problems at all tolerating others' beliefs, however zany they might seem to me.

Unless, of course, my taxes are being spent on having those beliefs peddled to my children.

And I agree with IB too.

I clearly have no original ideas on this subject...

Snowleopard - what makes you think that evolution is not being taught in faith schools in Britain?

I know Iorek. I went to a church primary followed by a grammar endowed by a Church Foundation and do not recognise the "faith schools" being described here.
Like you, I don't agree with state-funded schools discriminating on the basis of parents' religion, and that's why I think the system as it stands has to change.

It is - it's in the KS4 Science specification.

snowleopard, This page here sums up how ridiculous I think religion is. It's expressed as a joke, but makes a serious point. I won't post the text here since it might offend christians.

It takes a lot to offend Christians - people have been trying it for 2000 years, and it's even written in the Bible. It's just part of the package.