FAITH SCHOOLS! If you don't agree with them, step this way, my dears.

[onebatmother]

What can be done?

It seems to me that many of us don't agree with them, and some of us (not I) are quite knowledgeable about the ins and outs.

Could we not start a movement?

It's all so wrong, really, isn't it?

Cappuccino, I don't want to hijack this thread, but if you start one like "why do people hate faith schools so much" I'd be happy to explain. In the meantime consider if all your local schools were muslim and yuur kids were taught that anglicans worshipped a false god.

Going back to the OP I also think state-funded religious schools are fundamentally wrong and would like to join a movement to stop the funding. I would love to see truly secular schools like in France. At my DD's school they learn about all religions, which is fine by me.

if my children were taught that all muslims worshipped a false god I'd have a problem greyriver

but they aren't; again, it comes down to how individual schools teach religion

none of this crap ever comes up at mine or many others, I imagine

Capp, you know we think differently about this, but the problem is not about "mad schools" - nor is it about a "basic working knowledge of Christianity"
being taught about Christianity and other religions is one thing
being taught as fact that there is one truth and one right way is quite another, and yes I think there is something wrong with that.
I also think - as you know! - that discriminating against children on the grounds of their parents' religion is just wrong in principle. and I also think segregation is a really bad idea.
I think children should be taught together with other children, not just chilren of their own religious background, and taught to respect others and not that there is "one truth".
I also think school is for eduation and not, frankly, for praise and worship.
chilren can and should learn to think about others and give thanks for what they have and to celebrate their life - but this isn't particularly related to one religion or any.

Capp, I know you like your school and you like the education your children receive there, which is great. but you must understand that other people have a different experience and a different perspective?

My opinion of the French has continued to rise over the years. They seem to have the school thing worked out and the world didn't end did it so it can be done.

The only reason faith schools are popular with the non devout is the allocation of resources and the ability to pick and choose admissions.

also to reply to cappucinos comments about faith schools doing good by teaching children to think of others and be grateful for what they have, there is no reason why this cannot be taught in a non-god related way. I fact i believe that it is better for childrens social development and self esteem to teach them that 'they are a good person because they choose to be' rather than just telling them its because of god

faith schools are popular with non believers because it is a legit way to keep out the riff raff.
see the recent revelations about corruption in admissions interviews and applications.
I may, possibly, be over-simplifying, just a tiny bit

Even our bloody non demonitional junior school has horrendous amounts of faith. i was helping them out and they were putting pictures to do with the crucifiction in chronological order - heres jesus carrying the cross and here he is rising from the dead. Aaaaagh

what about we teach children ethics based on the 12 principles of secular humanism?

starting with this one:

H9. Special privileges should not be given to any group on the basis of religious or philosophical belief, nor should any group be discriminated against on grounds such as race, ethnicity, beliefs, gender or age

If there were no faith schools, would it be necessary to invent them?

We don't have faith buses, hospitals, dustbin collection, fire services, police, municipal swimming pools or parks...

who wants there child to be encouraged at school to draw pictures of a man being brutally tortured and executed????? Not me

Much better than the 10 commandmants I'd say. I never saw what was supposed to be moral about "be good to others and you will get a prize"

I wonder about promoting humanism as a positive alternative to replacing Christianity at the centre of state education?
I have recently started to define myself openly as a humanist, because the label "atheist" has a negative at the centre of it, and I don't want to be defined by a negative

Fiodyl can we have them charged with child abuse for showing such things to children? Imagine if the teacher got out his S&M collection

The Affirmations of Humanism:
A Statement of Principles
We are committed to the application of reason and science to the understanding of the universe and to the solving of human problems.
We deplore efforts to denigrate human intelligence, to seek to explain the world in supernatural terms, and to look outside nature for salvation.
We believe that scientific discovery and technology can contribute to the betterment of human life.
We believe in an open and pluralistic society and that democracy is the best guarantee of protecting human rights from authoritarian elites and repressive majorities.
We are committed to the principle of the separation of church and state.
We cultivate the arts of negotiation and compromise as a means of resolving differences and achieving mutual understanding.
We are concerned with securing justice and fairness in society and with eliminating discrimination and intolerance.
We believe in supporting the disadvantaged and the handicapped so that they will be able to help themselves.
We attempt to transcend divisive parochial loyalties based on race, religion, gender, nationality, creed, class, sexual orientation, or ethnicity, and strive to work together for the common good of humanity.
We want to protect and enhance the earth, to preserve it for future generations, and to avoid inflicting needless suffering on other species.
We believe in enjoying life here and now and in developing our creative talents to their fullest.
We believe in the cultivation of moral excellence.
We respect the right to privacy. Mature adults should be allowed to fulfill their aspirations, to express their sexual preferences, to exercise reproductive freedom, to have access to comprehensive and informed health-care, and to die with dignity.
We believe in the common moral decencies: altruism, integrity, honesty, truthfulness, responsibility. Humanist ethics is amenable to critical, rational guidance. There are normative standards that we discover together. Moral principles are tested by their consequences.
We are deeply concerned with the moral education of our children. We want to nourish reason and compassion.
We are engaged by the arts no less than by the sciences.
We are citizens of the universe and are excited by discoveries still to be made in the cosmos.
We are skeptical of untested claims to knowledge, and we are open to novel ideas and seek new departures in our thinking.
We affirm humanism as a realistic alternative to theologies of despair and ideologies of violence and as a source of rich personal significance and genuine satisfaction in the service to others.
We believe in optimism rather than pessimism, hope rather than despair, learning in the place of dogma, truth instead of ignorance, joy rather than guilt or sin, tolerance in the place of fear, love instead of hatred, compassion over selfishness, beauty instead of ugliness, and reason rather than blind faith or irrationality.
We believe in the fullest realization of the best and noblest that we are capable of as human beings.

from the Council for Secular Humanism

I do realise that people have a different perspective, I do

I respect that not everyone wants this

but I find that attacks based on 'indoctrination' and danger and the evil of faith teaching rather concerning - as you all step up to violently attack something that bears no relation to the wonderful schooling that my dd is receiving and which I am proud to support, I just want to add a bit of balance

I just don't see the excesses that threads like this always example - including "I used to think it was ok to celebrate Diwali and Eid and everything, but those are taught at best as quaint beliefs 'although we know better'"

harpsichord, I agree with you about "atheist". This is why I'm moving away from calling myself one, while maintaining exactly the same philosophical position. You may like this wonderful quote from Sam Harris:

"It is worth noting that no one ever need identify himself as a non-astrologer or a non-alchemist. Consequently, we do not have words for people who deny the validity of these pseudo-disciplines. Likewise, ?atheism? is a term that should not even exist. Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make when in the presence of religious dogma."

They don't really call them 'faith' schools over here in Northern Ireland. However, for years there have been primary/secondary schools which are funded by gov, but are run by catholic church(and you have to be RC to go to them). All the other state schools are then labelled as protestant! (although in effect they take anyone, and do).
In recent years there have been new 'integrated' schools introduced - all receive funding from gov, and their intake is 50% RC, 50% protestant. No idea what happens if you don't fall into either camp.
Their is a growing ethic community here, and they just have to fend for themselves.

IMO there should be only one type of state funded school with equal access to it from all sections of community.

"Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make when in the presence of religious dogma."
that's fabulous, UD.

Oh yes, I'm in.

I'm perfectly happy with those principles of Humanism. If I had to spell it out I'd say that was my current position.

I don't see atheism as negative though I take the point since many religious people misunderstand it and think it means Anti Religion which isn't quite the same thing.

Cappuccino, it's likely (it varies) that your wonderful school keeps out the less worthy in order to stay a lovely school.

Also you should know that some of us (perhaps many) regard religion as a force damaging to society. Some schools are milder in their 'indoctrination' but it is still wrong to attempt it.