Why do people imply childbirth isn't dangerous?

[SpeccieSeccie]

OK, I know that this sounds antagonistic but please bear with me.

Last night my friends' baby died as it was being born. I am heartbroken for her. She is a super-fit mid-twenties first pregnancy dream ticket. She did NCT, read up about stuff, took care of herself and the baby and as it was all text book she decided to have a home water birth. She was actively supported in this by all professionals. Trouble is there were complications and they couldn't get to hospital in time (nearest maternity hospital is 45 mins away). The baby died during a too late c-section.

I'm raging. Why didn't someone just tell her that childbirth isn't safe and encourage her to plan a hospital birth? She could have gone straight there instead of labouring at home. Then she'd have her baby now!! Instead she is grieving! Why do people persist in the idea that a couple of aromatherapy candles and some positive pushing is all you need for childbirth?

I know several women who either nearly died themselves or whose baby almost didn't make it. Now I know one that actually didn't make it.

I'm so angry. And so, so can't-put-into-words miserable for my friend.

Poor woman (and family), so sorry.

FWIW I agree with WWW. And my own experience is that the hospital where I gave birth was dangerously short-staffed. Had there been anything wrong with my labour, no-one would have bloody noticed anyway - there was ONE midwife to seven labouring women on hte midwife led birth centre.

I chose it because it was on the same floor as the hospital birth centre so in theory you could be slammed onto a trolley and whisked a few hundred yards. In fact there was more chance of pigs flying past my 12th floor window. She couldn't transfer me to the hospital side because there was only one midwife there, too.

The community midwives later told me St Thomas's has a reputation for being 'lucky' because they haven't managed to kill anyone yet. (This was in 2003, btw, I devoutly hope they have sorted themselves out now.)

I'm sorry to hear this speccie, your poor friend. I do agree with you that people do gloss over the risks to pregnant people a bit to try not to frighten. As someone who has suffered a stillbirth I'm often often slightly struck by people's 'naive optimism' in pregnancy, but I've never said anything to change it - you just don't. It's worth remembering though that in hospital there are additional risks of superbugs and things that aren't as great at home, so I can see that the overall risks for home and hospital births might be similar and it's not clear cut that if you did know all the risks you would always choose hospital.

I didn't really like WWW's 10 things more dangerous than childbirth as it totally disregards the time you spend in a lifetime doing all those activities - so 105 times as many peoples die per year in car accidents, but virtually everyone makes far more than 105 times as many car journeys in a lifetime than they give birth. It was also looking at maternal deaths in childbirth and disregarded infant ones. Childbirth is a bit risky, nowhere near as much so as it used to be, but there is a risk and many people don't appreciate it.

I know you're heartbroken for her speccie and I'm so sorry that her baby died but it's not the fault of the homebirth. Sometimes babies die. We know of several MNers that it has happened to and they were "safely" in hospital. However... that does nothing re your friend's loss nor your anger.

So again... I'm sorry for her loss.

A lot of rabid pro-homebirthers would agree 100% with the title which is exactly why they would choose homebirth; they're convinced it's safer than in hospital. I'm not going to argue that side either, just that it's not possible to declare anything from a single sad, tragic case. Terrible truth is that mothers and babies sometimes die in hospital births, too (not all of them obviously high risk, either).

I know someone who had a full term stillbirth (only an elective C-section weeks earlier might have prevented it). She chose to be induced at 38 weeks in her next pregnancy. Induction (of course in hospital) isn't supposed to be risky, but her baby became gravely ill soon after birth, possibly as a complication arising from the induction. So personally I'm taking nothing for granted, that's why I often argue "Don't sweat the small stuff", "Don't assume you're necessarily safe now you're 13 weeks", "Don't think that being heavily pregnant is that much luckier than being infertile", etc. in other pregnancy threads.

I do wish this thread had a title like "Don't read if you're pregnant or TTC" because I'm 8 months now and whatever I choose, there are going to be some risks I cannot avoid at this point. Must put this thread topic on my excluded list to make me stop looking at it.

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Hi Snorkle, I don't think the info in that link is accurate or anything, I was making the point, albeit not very scientifically, that plenty of things are dangerous and childbirth is one of them, potentially, but that it's all relative. So I do agree with you, that link is just one person's view, it isn't necessarily correct.

I'm not a "rabid homebirther" btw, I just am very happy that my 2 homebirths were good. I do think everyone's different and different people might prefer different places to give birth. I am not anti hospital birth, it just wasn't what I wanted at the time.

hi www, I know and you even said they were unscientific at the time - it's just the way statistic are presented is a bugbear of mine.

I initially booked to deliver my baby in a midwife led unit 20 minutes from hospital. At 22 weeks I changed my mind (I was working in the hospital unit and got on so well with my colleagues I thought I would feel comfortable with them after all).
I will be grateful for that decision forever. I developed group B strep sepsis in labour and my daughter became distressed. 10 minutes after the first sign of any problems she was delivered with an apgar of 2 and needing resuscitation (emergency section). I then had a 7 litre PPH and ended up on ITU (blood clotting problems due to the sepsis - not due to the section).
If we had not been in hospital I can't see how we would both have survived. This was my first baby after an entirely uncomplicated pregnancy. Statistics don't always work for individuals.

btw, I know there are also risks associated with hospital birth, and would always support people in their decision - but agree that it needs to be fully informed with no minimising of the risks in either situation.

Speccie that is awful about your friend.

Statistically, home birth is safer than in hospital.

An acquaintance of mine lost her newborn son half and hour after a prolonged and difficult hospital delivery with forceps. Terrible things happen. It is awful for all concerned.

Speccie, I'm so sorry for what happened to your friend.

A consultant obstetrician I spoke to last year told me about a woman who tried to give birth at a midwife-led birthing centre and was also 45 mins away from the medical intervention she eventually needed, and her baby died before they could get her there.

I chose to give birth in a hospital which I knew had the facilities I might need if there were complications, which did in fact happen both times.

my Ds ended up in SCUBU because of an appauling labour.

i was also a super fit 20 year old with excellent child bearing hips.

i agree that childbirth is minimalised.
it is a massive big deal and should be recognised as such.

Speccie i cannot imagine how your friend is feeling.
im so sorry for her

speccie - do ask your friend (when you think it would be ok to) about the sex of her baby and if she had chosen a name, people often say friends don't ask them details for fear of being upset.

SpeccieSeccie I'm so sorry and I do understand where you are coming from. I know two men who are raising their children themselves because their wives died during childbirth. I think this notion of a 'good birth' is madness. A good birth is a live baby. So sorry for you and your friend.

I can't even begin to imagine how upset and angry you must feel about this, let alone your poor, poor friend and her DP .

SpeccieSeccie - I am so sorry for your friends loss and for your grief too
I believe everyone has the right to make their own choice but this is exactly my reasoning for never even contemplating a home birth, the risk are just too high for me.
I really feel for you and your dear friend.

"Statistically homebirths are safer than hospital births"- now what does that actually mean? That if everybody gave birth at home there would be fewer deaths than if everybody gave birth in hospital? No, it doesn't! It means that at the moment proportionally more childbirth deaths happen in hospital than in the home. And where do you suppose the high risk mothers are giving birth? That's right- in hospital! So statistics are totally meaningless in this context -you are not comparing like with like.

we can all post our homebirth gone bad/ hospital birth gone bad experiences. nothing will change the fact some babies and some mothers do not make it. sometimes it is avoidable, sometimes not. nothing at this point is going to change speccie's feelings and her devastation at her friend's tragic loss. i think that home v hospital debate should perhaps take place on a different thread.

I'm sorry for your friend. Things go wrong in hospital or at home. Its one of the risks. my baby nearly died at birth and has been left brain damaged yet all signs were fine and a million midwives wouldn't have seen any problem (I had 3 as it was!)
When it happenend to me I felt the anger you are feeling on your friends behalf. The anger at the aromatherapy crowd, as it were, you just pop them out and go into raptures about it.
Life isn't fair though and some women lose babies and some women end up with brain damaged babies. Its taken me a long to time to accept 'it happens'. I grieved for the baby I lost while looking after the severely disabled one I was left with.
Your friend is at the beginning of this awful process and I'm guessing you'll be there for her. Don't avoid her thinking she has family around, she'll probbaly be glad of an 'outsider'. Family can be tough in times like that with you feeling like you have to nuture their grieving too.

speccie so sad about your friends tragedy - thinking about her at such an awful time

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Dear Speccie,

This is hard for you as well as your friend and the baby's dad.

I think a large part of the problem is that the medical professionals, be they supporting a home birth or a hospital one, do not really know the mum, and sadly some of them are not trained fully.

I have been in almost the same situation as you. A close friend planned a home birth. I'd had an easy hospital birth and was born at home myself and was full of the idea that all women can do it. She was very keen. Two weeks overdue the domino midwife recommened she go to hospital for a scan. My relaxed friend waited a day, then went in. I think her baby and her were FAR more scared than a stranger can notice.

She had a scan and there was merconium. They recommended induction and she agreed. I was with her until this point and then I left (I had to go home to breastfeed by baby - I wish I'd said 'oh lets start her on formula). I also wish I had said to the staff 'she's not quite as strong as she seems.'

They induced my friend, moving swiftly to a drip. After a few hours the midwife said she was 7cm. The midwife, sadly, was a trainee, and was wrong. My friend was not dilated at all.

My friend was in her mid-thirties and it was her first child.

She should not have been given only a trainee midwife.

A consultant finally came. He said she needed an emergency C-section. Over an hour later they did the operation. The baby, a girl, was deprived of oxygen and was born brain dead. She died four days later.

My friend was very brave.

She also sued the hosiptal and managed to change their policy, regarding the way the midwives tell what is the baby's skull when they are testing dilation, (and what is not).

My friend and I continued being close for quite a while. It was hard for me too, with a 9 month old baby girl. We don't see each other anymore. Perhaps she doesn't want to be the girl whose baby died. She has not had another.

Four and a half years later I had a son. I think I was too scared before. I went to a hospital abroad to do it. They were great.

I learned a few things from all this, and if I were to be involved at all in someone elses birthplan I would say:

If you are two weeks overdue don't even bother with induction. Just have a C-section.

Always get more than one person to feel for dilation on your first birth.

It's best not to be too rigid about birth.

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A card is good. Just listen to your friend. Share your own theories with other people, not her. Take care of yourself too.

Oh Speccie, I know exactly how you feel. A friend of mine refused an induction on the advice of midwives (she had a very dodgy consultant who everyone thought was rubbish) and based on thoroughly researching the scientific literature, which suggested her condition really didn't justify an induction.
Baby was stillborn and she is having a very hard time getting over it because she feels (completely wrongly, given she was not only following the advice of midwives, but had even done her own research) guilty. I want to scream at the midwives because if they hadn't told her not to have the induction there is a chance (just a chance, though, given that we don't know what went wrong or even if the hospital would have noticed if it had happened during the induction) that it would have been all right. BUT really, I know that there's a horrible element of randomness in it and if anything, what happened to her was more like deciding to cross the road at a crossing and then getting hit by a bus - it's not an exact science and all you can do is make a decision based on the best information known to you.