My family might be headed for disaster...

[tootiredtoocare]

It came home to me today when my DF went off into one of his regular low-key rants about 'woke culture' and 'box ticking'. Talking about Jim Davidson's Youtube channel and how they talk about 'anything that isn't woke', how 'wokeness' is killing our culture. I almost cried. I can't believe my DF is such a bloody gammon. He is an intelligent man, and we were brought up to be aware of current affairs, to read, we knew how to use encyclopaedias before most of our friends knew what they were, he put the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists into my hands when I was 13. Although I have disagreed with him about a lot of things, I've never worried about his opinions the way I do now. The disaster I think is coming, is that my DB, SIL and their DC are coming over from where they live abroad to spend most of August with us. They'll be staying at my house but obviously we'll spend a lot of time with DPs. Where I can just cut off from my DF, which I often do for the sake of DM, my sanity and my relationship with him, my SIL definitely won't, and DB will back her up, as he should. SIL is very opinionated, a strong feminist, and not being British has an insight into British culture we don't have. Both she and DB are even more left wing than I am and I'm firmly left. Do I sit my DF down and tell him he needs to shut up and avoid political discussion with her? I'd feel like I'm talking to a teenager, and I shouldn't have to parent him. Other option is to have a chat with SIL and DB and prepare them for him being the way he is. Either way, I'm really concerned that things will blow up. It will break DM's heart, she's so excited about finally getting the whole family together.

@toastedcat aside from being 34, I could have written your comment myself. I couldn't agree more

@Katya213

hhhmmm…where did they mention sexism and racism?🥱

In her posts, funnily enough:

he believes the UK is not racist because he doesn't hear anyone using racist language any more. He's white and doesn't believe the subtle racism that exists, does.

I found one of another, older, woman I've been following doing the same thing only with various instruments as well as singing, and he immediately turned his head away, saying, well at least this girl's good to look at.

He literally turned away from the video upon seeing that the woman was older and not pretty, without even listening to her talent.

OP said her father goes off regularly on these rants. So maybe it is him that’s incapable of staying away from these topics and SIL will only be talking about it in reply to him, challenging his views. Should she just let him rant away when she doesn’t agree. Jim Davidson wannabe speaking, everyone quiet 🤫

I have no issue with relatives with differing opinions to myself, if they can make an intelligent argument for them. If someone can demonstrate that, say, privatising the NHS or burning fossil fuels is a great idea then I’m open-minded enough to listen. But if they’re just parroting bigoted, culture wars rubbish from the Daily Mail then they get their comments pulled apart mercilessly. Fortunately, I was blessed with parents who continually surprised me with how anti-Brexit, anti-Boris/Trump and pro-Green they became. They became more progressive as they aged, perhaps due to the influence of their children. Let your SIL pull him down a peg or two.

You sound like hard work.

I can't believe my DF is such a bloody gammon.
What a spiteful thing to say. Shame you weren't brought up to be kind and tolerant. Are you really not able to avoid certain hot topics as a family? Sounds like your family dynamic lack compassion and mutual respect.

How about YOU grow up and accept that people can see things differently to you, are absolutely entitled to do so and that’s ok?

Accepting someone having different politics views doesn’t mean accepting racism and bigotry. If he’s watching Jim Davidson on YouTube it’s not just going to be a bit of light economic conversativism is it!

I would tell him straight he’s being a bigot and nobody appreciates his views but that’s me. I would back up my brother and SIL if they challenged him. And no, I wouldn’t respect my parent if one of them descended into right wing xenophobic and intolerant nonsense. Being related to them doesn’t mean I should treat their bigotry any differently than if it’s coming from some arsehole down the pub (and I frequently do tell my parents when they’re being intolerant). It’s not about being “woke” (which has been twisted in meaning so far beyond its origins), it’s about being a decent person who doesn’t view others as lesser or fair game for insults or violence because of their race, sexuality, sex, religion etc. that’s not politics, it’s just hate speech.

@youvegottenminuteslynn
hhhmmm…where did they mention sexism and racism?🥱
In her posts, funnily enough:

It was lameasahorse at 21:48 that conflated right wing / conservative with racist / sexist, not OP.

But OP's dad is displaying sexism and denying racism exists where it clearly does.

That was my point - that those topics have been mentioned for a reason on the thread not just out of the blue.

I probably didn't explain it well!

@toastedcat agreed.
I’m 36. The art of healthy conversation and debate is dying.
Whatever happened to agreeing to disagree.

I think that what the OP means is that the onlooker sees most of the game.

Have you ever read any Bill Bryson books?

It's difficult when people hold views you disagree with. I did some training recently with a guy and within 5 minutes he made comments about immigration, Brexit and covid being a lie, followed up intermittently with derogatory remarks about asian taxi drivers, punctuated with sexist comments. However he was a good and caring trainer, supportive etc. People are a myriad of things, some good, some bad, and that will be your dad, too. I am left-leaning and feminist but I find some woke views very reductive, stereotyping and intolerant to the point of violence. They say the extremes of the political circle meet each other.

Anyway, your question wasn't really about that. I would forewarn your brother so he can talk to your SIL-- but overall you can't control these two adults and how they react to each other. Not very helpful I know, but it might be ok.

I'm a leftist in both my specific opinions and, even more importantly, my entire voting record, but I think it's entirely valid (necessary, even) to engage critically with 'woke' culture and not to accept any opinions as right or true just because they've acquired the label of woke. That's a quick road to groupthink and political tribalism. I think it's a bit concerning that you're conflating leftism with 'woke', tbh.

You can't tell your Dad what to think and say. Mind your own business.

I also think you're being very narrow in your understanding of a much older man's POV on (e.g.) racism, OP. I am not saying that I agree with him at all, because I don't; I agree with you that there is still (sadly) loads of racism in British society, at all levels. From microaggressions to huge miscarriages of justice.

But I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a younger person to maintain some perspective on the changes that have occurred across an older person's lifespan. I don't know how old your dad is, but in books that my dad read as a kid, it was still acceptable to refer to an item of clothing as '[n word] brown'. Not as an intentional slur but as (at the time) a 'neutral' descriptive term.

Obviously now we know that's appalling. It's only one tiny example of how things have changed, but I think it's easy to lose sight of how substantial those changes have been when we are even moderately aware of how bad things still are. For some older people (perhaps especially those who were further left, cared about activism, etc, back in the day?), there is a valid and not factually incorrect perception that there has been a sea change in what's acceptable.

Again, I'm not saying that when someone extrapolates from that that 'racism is over', that I think they're correct or should be validated in that view per se. But I also don't think that a strict 'you just don't know how racist you are, you terrible racist' really answers what's going on. There may also be a need (perhaps unconscious?) to feel that the world has improved over the course of their life. It must be a hard thing to face nearing one's later years and the end of one's life, and to accept that the 'progress' one wanted and hoped for was illusory or flawed.

This in spades. Also known as being interfering and should keep their nose out!

Let the man have his own opinions and the woke and permanently offended should leave them alone.

Where has OP said anywhere she is thinking of cutting him off?
She's asked what to do in order to mitigate potentially very upsetting arguments during a long awaited family reunion. No suggestion of cutting anyone off!

OP I would warn both parties. Your brother and sil not to tone themselves down but just so they are prepared for things he might say, because it can be upsetting if someone you admire/love says something very racist/sexist/?homophobic etc when you aren't expecting it.

Same with your dad, it doesn't have to be an argument about it,ust say dad you know I disagree with your views about x y z, please will you try and not go on about them when brother is here because we don't want an argument. If he says he's allowed to express an opinion say of course but there's a difference between expressing an opinion and spoiling for a fight, and realistically if he doesn't bring comments up about "wokeism" out of the blue surely they won't come up organically that often in just normal conversation?

If both parties agree that the family reunion is not the time for intense political debate then surely you have enough to chat about your jobs, kids, people you have in common, old memories, tv/film, sport, your hobbies, any places you're visiting and day trips you're going on etc...
This is what I do with my dad!

OP I get what you're saying totally. My Dad isn't quite this far gone, but we have come to an agreement not to discuss politics and there are certain things we skirt around. Much as a pp said, he grew up in a different world. I love him dearly and I know that he would always help someone else in need, ie make the subject of his ire a human being in front of him and not a statistic and he behaves with humanity and acceptance, but some of his pronouncements confuse me as they aren't from the same person who brought me up to respect everyone.

However I would have a word with your brother, give him a heads up, ask him to try and reroute things if subjects come up. Can you talk to your SIL direct and ask her just not to bite or leave the room or just shut things down, with "I'm not discussing that" if stuff comes up. I'd explain about your mum and hopefully you can make it through without any big bust ups.

I know it's not ideal that people don't speak their mind, or aren't able to have a discussion but sometimes it's worth taking a step back and not getting to that point because of the damage it could cause to family relations (especially if your father is getting more stubborn and unlikely to accept an apology or realise that he could be at fault)
It isn't worth the points that might be scored.

"Gammon"

I'd be interested to know exactly when it became acceptable to insult people using the colour of their skin.

Hold the fucking front page. Someone has a different opinion.

You sound utterly exhausting OP.

Usually people are very vocal about things that trigger them. I wonder what is being triggered in your brother…could it be that his needs weren’t respected when he was growing up, so now he sees “wokeness” from an almost jealousy perspective…that he never received it so no one else deserves it? Was he bullied for something?

This is something you see quite often:

If you’re not a liberal at 20 you have no heart, if not a conservative at 40 you have no brain.

People become more right wing as they age (very generally). Your dad is entitled to his views, so is your SIL. You don't need to police this. If they scrap, they scrap. It is not your fault. I know your mum will be upset, but that is really not something you can control.

You have also called him a gammon. I think that's a judgmental stereotype isn't it? Is judging OK as long as it conforms to the vocal view of the day?

I think op's point is that her Dad can't agree to disagree and bangs on endlessly about what he thinks.

Both op and her Mum have to shut up and not express an opinion in order to keep him calm.

She is concerned that her SIL will challenge her highly opinionated Dad and he will loose his shit and say something so fucking offensive that SIL and DB leave, which will decimate her Mum.

The thing is with these people is that if the behaviour comes from anxiety (about change essentially), even not expressing an opinion doesn't work - just riles them up further.

Thanks for the people who get it. As I'm feeling a bit attacked, I'm just going to expand - he has his opinions. I have mine. We don't agree on a lot, politically, we have quite intense discussions. My biggest worry is not my relationship with him. It is that if he goes on one of his increasingly common low-key rants, my SIL will react and their discussions will be heated, at best, but may well become argumentative. They've always had that relationship, and it's previously led to fiery but ultimately friendly debate. My concern is that it's a long time since they've been together and his opinions are markedly more conservative, and that will be fuel for potential explosion. Where I just bite my tongue these days, my SIL won't. Following many commenters here, I think my best option will be to have a quiet word with all of them separately, and redirect conversation when I can.