GF: Love her or hate her? the Great Debate. Please leave all weapons at the door and NO stomping off, offended. OK?

[SoupDragon]

OK, to avoid the Great Debate cluttering up other threads where pro-GF mums are asking for help, I've started this one. It may have been done before...

If you read another thread and have nothing helpful but want to share your GF feelings, do it here!

I guess it could get heated here so please don't get offended and storm off in a huff as has happened elsewhere with other contentious issues - just avoid this thread

OK, for what it's worth, I have no problems with GF except for the fact that all babies are different so her rigid routine may not fit in with your baby. You should maybe see her routines as flexible - half an hour or an hour either way isn't going to make much difference is it? And I think that before 6 weeks is way too young to be messing with feeding routines, especially if you're breastfeeding. It can mess up your supply in theose important first weeks and I think this is why breastfeeding counsellors seem to hate her so much.

Right, I'm off to duck beneaththe parapet and let you get on with it!

Well as a full time working mother (entirely through choice) I am certainly not going to bother justifying my decision when the argument here seems to be entirely based on the specious premise that mothers shouldn't work full time but of course it's absolutely fine for men to.

I hope you two are grateful that you have partners willing and happy to shoulder the financial burden for your entire family.

And yet another contentious subject.
Having a baby was not a mistake for me, but my work and my life is still important. I go to work full time because I enjoy it. I completely resent the implication that because I decided I do not want to be with my baby 24 hours a day then I must have been mistaken in my wish to have her. I am so ANGRY I can't write properly.
Why don't we just rename this thread "lets have a go at the non earth mothers". I deliberately chose to have a life as well as my baby as I was very concious of my stepmother subconsiously blaming me for "ruining" her life. I never want my children to feel that they were a hindrance or a burden to me. I admit that this is not what all you SAHM's will do, but is my experience. I respect your decisions to stay at home and look after your kids, please respect my decision to pay somebody else to do the day to dya stuff. This does not mean that I love my child less than you do.

On thing that being a working mother does seem to give you is an ability to respect others - sadly lacking in a number of people on this site. (This is directed at only a few people - I would never generalise about all SAHM's)

A good friend of mine who is expecting her first baby was recently told by her mother (a 70s SAHM) NOT to give up her career as she regrets giving up her work so much. My friend's experience of her mum (sadly) is as a frustrated, angry, often irritable woman who resented giving up her independence so she also wishes her mum had gone out to work! Also, my friend has an incredibly close relationship with her (always full-time working) dad. It just goes to show that being a SAHM isn't the right option for every woman or for every child, and that it is (of course) perfectly possible for a working parent to have a great relationship with their kids.

zebra, I'm nearly 40, and dd is likely to be my one and only child. Dh has a teenager from a previous marriage. The bottom line is that I earn three times what dh earns. It is not feasible to give up work and look after dd.The mortgage has to be paid. Similarly, if dh gave up work to become a SAHD, he would lose a significant portion of his pension.OK, if I'd married and had kids before I got this far in my career, then things may have been different. I might have had a dh who was rich, I might have inherited a house, so not need to pay a mortgage, I might have had a mother living nearby who could help out with childcare, so I could work part time; lots of things might have happened....
My work is NOT more important than my baby, but it does enable me to feed and clothe her.It also enables me to provide for her future and keep a relatively sane head on my shoulders.

Dd is no less wanted or loved than your children.

I haven't read the whole thread but in answer to your question Zebra is : because I can and I want to. I do not believe that the childcare arrangements for our ds are detrimental to his well being and I may be proved wrong or, I may be proved right, who knows?

Whilst I have been away this thread seems to have taken on a rather unpleasent tone which I am reluctant to add to but Croppy's final comment about partners who are happy to support us really offends me.

I have proffession and did have quite a high powered job some would say and over the years since ds1 was born have worked most of the time part time,the decision to do this was always a joint one with dh having regard to whats best for our family as a whole,he has a very pressurized job and works long hours;at the moment he is not especially busy so leaves home roughly 06.00am and returns approx9.00pm we decided that as when I am working I also, despite best efforts, find it hard to leave the job behind, the best thing for the moment was that I would not work,I love being ASAHM although I do miss the job and I am conscious that I will need to do something soon to keep up to date.

I am rambling a bit but deeply resent the implication that I somehow sponge off dh and will resent my children for ruining my career or because I can't afford to go skiing etc.I won't say I'm an angel and with the second week of our half term dawning will admit to going demented with moaning children but I chose to do it this way together with DH who incidentally has always been supportive of whatever I wanted to do,he does not regard me as sponging and I make an effort to pull my weight financially inother wasy by mannging our income etc.I do not spend all my time a coffee mornings and discusing nappies nad my friends at home include just about every profession out there we have all made the decision swe have because they fit in with our circumstances at the time.

You are complain that SAHM are judgemental about you but then you behave the same way yourself about them.I have been both and admit I have been lucky to be able to structure my career thus but every person chooses the right way for them adn their families please stop slagging people off for a choice that is none of your business.Incidentally if you have not done both how can you possibly judge.

I presume Zebra, Anais et al we'll be mentioning MMR soon....

My two pennies - a book I'd recommend is "Mother Nature" by Sarah Hrdy to all mothers, earth or otherwise. From an evolutionary/biological point of view, what matters is getting your child to survive and have the best position in life possible. If that is achieved by the mother working then that is entirely consistent with our "instincts" - the idea being that the higher up the chain the female, the better off her children will be. What matters for the child is that they are surrounded by carers who form good emotional bonds with them, but that doesn't have to be the mum. She gives examples where primates actively seek "allo-mothers" for their babies so they can go and gather food unhindered. Another example she gives is a female chimp who, when an new male defeated the old alpha male, actually gave her baby to the old alpha male, because she realised that the baby would be better off not being in the troop anymore - and she would be better off getting impregnated as fast as possible by the new male. Ok, you might find this all a bit abstract, but what matters is (1) that the child you have has the best position in life (2) that means that if you are better off letting your child be looked after by someone else for a while while you go off to gather food/earn money etc etc then that's OK! From the mum's point of view, the idea is not to have lots of kids with scarce resources, it's raising a few children well. Clearly some forms of childcare wouldn't fit the bill - the child has to be able to form a bond with the carer. Dads can do this just as well as mums, there are a few biological things (like BF) that tend to encourage a mother-child bond, but all humans have the capacity to form a bond with a child and look after it - adoption wouldn't work otherwise. For some mums, the best thing they can do is to be a SAHM. But there's nothing "instinctual" about it.

I work part-time - not because I really love it, but because I realised that if I don't go back in some way now I may never be able to go back. I can't say I'm so confident in my relationship that I don't think I'd ever need to work again and live off DH for the rest of my life. And occasionally it's interesting!! Plus I get to have lattes uninterrupted... OK ramble over, to be ignored by everyone...

And just to add a PS, surely the debate should be how best to get society to recognise the importance of high-quality affordable childcare to the future mental health of our kids? Seems to me the SAHM/working mothers debate just sidetracks the key issue - not who brings up the kids, but how they are brought up.

Philly
I can only presume that you did not read all of my previous post. I cannot understand how you can feel that the below is in any way judgemental.

"I admit that this is not what all you SAHM's will do, but is my experience. I respect your decisions to stay at home and look after
your kids, please respect my decision to pay somebody else to do the day to dya stuff. This does not mean that I love my child less than you do.

On thing that being a working mother does seem to give you is an ability to respect others - sadly lacking in a number of people on this site. (This is
directed at only a few people - I would never generalise about all SAHM's)"

I work now, but in the future would certainly consider giving up if my feelings change. I actually sometimes feel envious of mothers who do enjoy staying at home, and do not think that this makes you any less capable or intelligent than me (in fact completely the opposite) I don't think you "sponge" at all - in fact when dh and I were considering me stayinga t home we had agreed that he would pay me half his salary after bills/mortgae etc each month, as staying at home is just as important as working, and the only reason he is woudl be able to wrok and earn money was because I was doing the childcare job.
I do feel taht throughout this v. contentious thread I have tried to be as non judgemnetal as possible. I do have strong opinions on issues, but my biigest belief is that we should each be allowed and supported to live as we wish. I have never criticised someone else's choice, and would never presume to do so. My only criticism's are of people who try to tell me, or anybody else that their way is wrong - so telling me I am doing exactly that is really quite upsetting. I am sorry if I have caused offence - I tried v. hard not to

florenceuk, couldn't agree with you more.

anais & zebra - for goodness sake! Have some empathy girls - we're not all the same as you and your partners!

DH & I CHOSE to have dd but we also CHOSE to continue working, both looking after dd in a sort of patchwork with a bit of external childcare. DH is JUST as nuturing as me, if not more so. I love my child, I love my job - IT IS NOT A COMPETITION!

I'm a better mother BECAUSE I work part time. I know that if I was a SAHM I would be a gibbering miserable wreck by the end of a week, and I would be no use to man or beast - let alone child.

That's because of the way I am. I need to have a life of my own, to have stimulation from other things that don't involve babytalk and so on.

There are women, including many of my friends, who look after their kids full time and thrive on it (OK they're exhausted but so is every mum). Just as I know that's not for me, I can see that they would find it hell to be at work for part or all of the week. So they do what makes them and their children happier, and I do what makes me and my children happier. And yes, mine ARE happy, older one at nursery and loving it and baby with my mother and also loving it.

We're all intelligent women and we do what makes sense for our own lives, based on our characters and our circumstances. We should have the tolerance and imagination to figure out that we're all different. We're all just trying to keep sane in one way or another.

Philly, as I made clear my post was directed SOLELY at Zebra and Anais who suggested that those who worked full time through choice valued their career above their children. Obviously it is a lot more complicated than that.

I most certainly did not mean to imply that SAHM's sponge off their partners as this is not what I think at all. I have the utmost respect for women who choose to stay at home and are happy doing so. I apologise for any hurt.

Likewise sorry if I gave offence or jumped to conclusions just saw red after A particularly stressful morning!

Prufrock also we were posting at the same time I did not see yours until after mine went up.

Florenceuk, can you clarify ? You say Zebra, Anais and al will start on MMR next... what do you mean ? Do you suspect them to be anti-MMR ?

No, just that they seem to want to discuss all the sensitive topics which generate the most heat on Mumsnet - and MMR (to v or not to v) is one of them. NO I don't want to start a discussion on this now...

What ever happened to the right to speak? Zebra and Anais might think differently to a lot of us, but why are we condemning them their views? Zebra's post was not personal, she was airing her views but she mentioned no-one's name, she was not on a personal attack. I know a lot of SAHMs who feel exactly the same but are scared of airing their views in case they get jumped on!

Zebra was simply asking why mothers "choose" to work, now is your chance to change her views on the subject, but personal attacks will only enforce her views. Methinks some of you complain too much!

Out of interest why do SAHM's hold views on whether or not other women should work full time? Presumably nobody is asking them to and as long as they are happy with their own situation why do they care?

Rhubarb - always the voice of common sense! You're right, of course, we should try and articulate our reasons for working (which some have done admirably), not just jump up and down and get excited!

(however unintentional, Zebra gave me the impression she thought working mums had decided having a child was a bit of a mistake - something several of us took badly...)

I work full time for many reasons (in no particular order) - because I love my work, because it fulfills a different part of me from being a mum, because my husband and I share the childcare pretty much equally (and I realise I am very lucky that he is made that way), because I like spending time with the people I work with, because I believe that I'm lucky to have the opportunity and the choice to work, because frankly it's easier than looking after a child - or my child anyway (how do you SAHMs get time to come on mumsnet?!), because I'm ambitious enough not to want a career break, because I feel almost as maternal about my job and it couldn't cope without me, because to be honest I never considered doing it any other way.

For me it has little to do with money, much more about me.

I see my daughter for 4 hours a day on work days (and the 12 hours she's asleep of course!), DH sees her about a hour more on the 3 days she's at nursery. She's with us considerably more than with anyone else. But she also gets to do things she wouldn't with us, and she does genuinely love nursery.

I personally think more than one caregiver is a positive thing for dd.

I realise the scenario we have just wouldn't work for everyone - the fact the dh does more than equal caregiving makes my choices easier. However, parenting is about finding the way that works best for you (even if that way is GF ). To suggest, or even imply, that someone's parenting skills are insufficent because they chose to do differently from you is inconsiderate (something we do break into from time to time on mumsnet but which does upset people).

Thankyou Philippat, especially for the last bit!

Oh, how I've missed these debates....
Will have to do my bit on GF because I missed out, so here goes.
A comment that always makes me laugh about GF is how can she know what's best for a baby when she hasn't had one. Come on, do we say, how can this doctor treat my cancer, he hasn't got cancer? How can this policeman investigate my burglary, he's never been burgled? How can this teacher educate my child, he hasn't got any children? That's what training for a job is all about!!!!!Perhaps what we should be asking is how can people be let loose on their own babies without adequate help & support?! I know that GF had bags more experience than I did when I toddled out of hospital with my 3 day old baby, as to what makes them cry etc.
Another thing that makes me laugh, is that mothers know best because their instincts kick in. Oh yes, I suppose that goes for all those who abuse and murder their children too. I'm not sure their is such a thing as a mother's instinct. I've read Mother Nurture too by Sarah Hrdy and thought it was mind blowing. Made me feel so much better for my less than perfect attempts to raise my children. I think it is something you have to learn and if you haven't got a clue what you are doing then you need someone to give you some advice. If you haven't got a cuddly, full of advice mum of your own, don't have friends with kids then GF has got some helpful tips.
My own feelings about GF is that she is one of many 'experts', with her own interpretation of what works best. With ds, I read her book and learnt the routines by heart before he was born and then tried to apply them to my angry, colicky baby. Couldn't settle him into a routine until he was on solids at 16 weeks and felt the intervening weeks that I was failing because I couldn't do GF. However, that was due to my own insecurity and not related to Gina, afterall she wasn't forcing me to do her routines. With dd, I approached the whole small baby process with more confidence and didn't look at GF at all. At six months she has a very flexible routine, partly because she has to do nursery school drop offs, collections, trips to zoos, parks etc to keep big brother entertained!
As with all experts GF, thinks hers is the best way to have a contented baby but her style is not going to suit every parent or every baby. Life just doesn't work like that. She has to believe that she is right, otherwise she couldn't have confidence in her ability to do her job.
As for paid employment or not. Do what works for you, if you possibly can. I love working part-time and feel that I cope better with my children when I do work. I am just not cut out to be at home with kids 24/7 but thats just me and I certainly wouldn't want to suggest that someone who loves being at home with their children should be made to go to work. If we lived back in primative times, I would have been volunteering to go pick up twigs for making fires!!!

I am a SAHM and I sincerely hope I don't impose any views on why women do or do not go out to work; I absolutely agree that everyone must do what is right for themselves and their family situation and I am very, very conscious that I am 'lucky' to be able to be supported by staying at home & quite honestly my life (with just one child) is much,much easer than my DH's and, I suspect, most of you working mums balancing careers and families.

My main reason for not working is (apart from living in an incredibly rural area with few opportunities) that I just don't like going out to work!! I know that may sound incredibly arrogant but I would much rather be at home following my own hobbies & interests than rushing around at work all day!

What interests me, and nothing to do with whether you have children or not, but if you didn't need to have to work for financial reasons, how many of you would still choose to go to work? I feel it is a sad reflection of society that so many people are judged on 'what they do for a living' rather than the person they are.

I don't often post about the SAHM/working mother debate, because as far as I am concerned it is a totally personal choice.

I know that in my OWN case I am a better mother through going out to work full time. Personally, I would be climbing up the wall if I stayed at home all the time - and ds wouldn't be as happy either.

Dh and I both still have plenty of "quality" time with ds - from 6.45 to 8 in the morning (including a lovely snuggle in bed first thing in the morning as he has beaker of milk) and then from 5.30 to 8 in the evening. And the weekends are "his" We take pleasure in the time we spend with him - but we also appreciate the time we have we are out at work and, just as important, for each other once ds has gone to bed.

Also just as important - ds is happy. He runs into the childminder without a backward glance in the morning - and comes running out with a big hug in the evening. He has been going there since he was 4 months old (he's now 2) and as a result of the contact with the other kids (which he would not otherwise have got as I'm an older Mum with few friends locally with young kids) he is a confident, sociable and adaptable child. I am honestly not the sort of mum who could spend all her time playing with her child, getting out the play dough and the paints etc. I can cope with (and enjoy!)) for short periods at the weekends and in the evenings - but not for much longer periods!

I am loving watching him growing up - and certainly do not feel that I have abdicated that responsibility to someone else. I (or rather we, dh and I) make all the decisions about what he eats, when he goes to bed and gets up, how he should be disciplined (not really an issue at this stage - more a case of encouraging certain behaviours), whether we take him swimming, to the park?. everything except playing with other kids during the day during the week. To my mind, that is not letting someone else bring him up.

Some things have had to go, of course. I used to go running, but at the moment my time with ds in the evening is too precious, so as I am a slug that hates getting out of bed in the morning, and after 8 is too late to go for a run (it's not really, but it's a good excuse), for the moment I've stopped running. (Instead, I'm going to start cycling in to work - good for the environment!). I do miss not being able to take him to Tumbletots and things like that (although I have found out about a local baby swimming class at 9 on a Sunday morning).

In "olden" days, mums would have had to work - out in the fields or whatever. Babies would have been strapped to backs (as they still are in the Third World), but as soon as they are more mobile, would have been left in the care of the extended family - such as older kids, grandmothers or aunts. It is only in our more affluent society that we have the luxury of being able to stay at home. And it could be argued that with the advent of the nuclear family, childminders and other such forms of support are the modern day equivalent of the extended family.

I emphasise again that this is OUR choice and in our case we believe that we have done the best by both our ds and ourselves, given our and his characters. Ds is very much part of our lives - but not the ONLY thing in them.

Whether you "have" to work or not is a difficult question. I suspect that for some people, to maintain their current standard of living requires 2 incomes. However, presumably they could move to a smaller house, move to a cheaper area and give up foreign holidays etc if they REALLY wanted to. Personally I think that money is greatly underrated. OK if you have a miserable home life it doesn't matter if you are as rich as croesus or flat broke, you'll still be miserable. But if you have a great home life, a bit of spare cash for holidays and being able to afford the home and lifestyle you want makes a lot of difference. Or perhaps I'm just deeply shallow!.

well I don't think that's a shallow point of view - I believe everyone has an individual child time/career time/personal time balance and money comes into it lots. Money increases your freedom of choice for better or worse. You're lucky indeed if you are happy to live on very little.

Just skimmed over this thread - too much to comment on. Bloss, liked your post, especially when you say you wanted to believe instinct worked but it was experience that led you to Gina Ford. l hope you find that parent who has adopted GF, been successful then given it up and I find that parent who had a first easy baby but still chose to follow GF. What refreshing viewpoints we could look forward to! With over 8,000 signed up for mumsnet, surely someone will step forward?
Mind you I don't read every post so perhaps I have missed something.

Also just for the record I'd like to agree with those who posted that adopting loose routines and co sleeping etc doesn't IMO equal lazy parenting and result in horror toddlers.

Amyway I can see the debate had moved on so I'll move on too.