Not trans, not cis. What am I?

[allaboutthecrisps]

This is a genuine thread. I will try and phrase this well and please only respond on topic. It's hardtm tobhave a respectful conversation about any gender identity topics atm but I feel it's important that we work towards that. So I've been trying to educate myself about gender identity issues. I have read around a little and explored some definitions and descriptors. I have come to the conclusion that I do not have a gender identity. This means I'm not cis as the definition of that relies on my gender identity matching my biological sex. I'm not trans as there's no sense of a mismatch either and whilst I hate my body that's not because of it's sexual characteristics. I could see a category of gender queer but that did not really talk to me either. This came up because I was completing some questionnaires which asked me to report my gender identity. If this is something we're going to be asked to do more often (and I think it is) its important to me to do this in a way which I can actually identify with. There will be people much more informed about these issues than me so can you advise what 'gender identity' someone without a gender identity can report. Ia it perhaps agender or are there other more helpful categories?

[quote allaboutthecrisps]@drspouse

Yes that was the consultation which prompted this question. I put other then described myself as a female non binary woman but wasn't sure I really believed myself.[/quote]
It's scary and heartbreaking how far this has gone when women have to jump through hoops, find new words, adopt a made up identity, be othered literally just to be able to say they're women and make sure the person reading whatever bullshit form they're filling in understand what they mean by it .

Atm it seems some places are more than happy to leave women with only 3 alternatives:
1.get on with the program
2.jump through hoops
3.never be heard because they refuse to do either 1 or 2.

As a thought experiment it's fascinating. As real life it's terrifying.

If forms are going to ask about gender, I wish they’d give the option of “none” or “no gender”. But they almost never do. And having read the descriptions, agender doesn’t cover how I’d describe myself anyway - I’m very happy to be referred to as “she / her” as I’m a biological woman.

I find it extremely disconcerting to have to describe myself in terms of a belief system I don’t subscribe to. A bit like I’d never describe myself as an atheist, but happy to say “no religion”.

@GreyhoundG1rl There are people who identify as both agender and trans, that is simply true. I read the OP as someone genuinely questioning their gender and responded in good faith. The subsequent posts made it clear I had misinterpreted and was answering a different question to the one being asked.

I have asked myself exactly the same question. This is where my thinking has taken me so far.

I now consider there to be three separate definitions of Woman: biological, legal and gender. I try to always clarify in what sense I’m using the word.

So, if I were to define myself it would always be against all three together. I’m legally a woman, biologically a woman, and agender.

I don’t use the gender term Woman for myself (cis or otherwise) because I don’t have a sense of myself as a woman in anything beyond the biological and the social impact of that biology, which puts me outside the Woman gender because the gender definition of Woman, which includes trans women, is not based on biology. As I said in another thread, I absolutely accept this Woman gender exists, it’s just that whatever it is, I’m not it .

However, I’m biologically female so I still need the rights and protections in place for my sex. Since single-sex provisions are currently also usually defined as Women’s I can’t give up the word Woman altogether. Hence, legally a Woman with all the rights of a woman.

Obviously, I don’t come out with that mouthful when I introduce myself (I promise I am slightly more interesting at parties than that!). But I have found it very helpful to have articulated it clearly to myself, because then when the need to discuss topics related to sex and gender come up I have a consistent language and framework to use which cannot be dismissed as transphobic, indeed explicitly accepts trans identities, but does not require me to give up my own rights nor to accept a gender identity that I know is wrong.

Since single-sex provisions are currently also usually defined as Women’s I can’t give up the word Woman altogether. Hence, legally a Woman with all the rights of a woman.
Why would you attempt to give up the word woman when you are a biological woman? Just because others have tried to appropriate the term doesn't mean it's no longer applies to natal women?
Rolling over and saying "They've changed the definition so it no longer applies to me" isn't the way to go.

@RiaOverTheRainbow

I guess I am genuinely questioning my gender in an effort to see if I can get on board with the changes some people want. Maybe there are more people out there with a gender identity than i believe and in that case I might benefit from having a coherent way of describing my lack of gender identity.

[quote allaboutthecrisps]@RiaOverTheRainbow

I guess I am genuinely questioning my gender in an effort to see if I can get on board with the changes some people want. Maybe there are more people out there with a gender identity than i believe and in that case I might benefit from having a coherent way of describing my lack of gender identity.[/quote]
Which people?

Why is what they want more important than what you want and who you are?

Why do you have to define yourself in any way or prescribe to any notion of gender?

I get the form was very prescriptive and shit, but you seem to apply this extensively in you life and mindset.

Why?

It's just like the Emperor's new clothes. At the moment you're not fully saying "yes i can see them" even though you're not. However, You're on the very slippery slope of thinking "hmmm... maybe I do see a shadow.. maybe there is something there... maybe it's me" and you actually know you don't. You're gaslighting yourself.

[quote allaboutthecrisps]@RiaOverTheRainbow

I guess I am genuinely questioning my gender in an effort to see if I can get on board with the changes some people want. Maybe there are more people out there with a gender identity than i believe and in that case I might benefit from having a coherent way of describing my lack of gender identity.[/quote]
Firstly, what is gender? What is it that you are meant to be feeling or not feeling in order to experience being 'Cis'?

We've established that you are a woman so what is it that you are missing with this 'Gender Identity'? Have you even questioned what that means? You are going down a rabbit hole OP - questioning your identity because other people are saying 'stuff'.

@GreyhoundG1rl

Since single-sex provisions are currently also usually defined as Women’s I can’t give up the word Woman altogether. Hence, legally a Woman with all the rights of a woman. Why would you attempt to give up the word woman when you are a biological woman? Just because others have tried to appropriate the term doesn't mean it's no longer applies to natal women? Rolling over and saying "They've changed the definition so it no longer applies to me" isn't the way to go.

Woman-the-gender doesn’t apply to me. Woman-the-sex does.

But fundamentally what’s important to me is not the word but the concept and the function. If the best way to preserve women-the-sex’s rights and to continue to fight oppression by sex is to use a different name for the female sex and leave Woman purely as a gender term I would have no issue with that.

In reality it’s not happening any time soon because trans ideology is currently obsessed with appropriating our existing women-the-sex rights and provisions for woman-the-gender. The last thing they want is to separate the words because that’s the mechanism that’s allowing the appropriation. Which is why it’s powerful to firstly make the distinction visible, and secondly to sidestep the argument about who is or is not a Woman and keep the focus on sex as a separate thing to gender.

Sweet Baby Jesus... do you think men are tying themselves up in knots trying to appease the fucking world with how to define themselves, whilst succeeding in disappearing up their own fundament?

From the tippitty top of my shaved head, to the red of my painted toenails, I am a woman, a female person, no matter what I wear, how I paint myself or not, long hair short hair, what I love, who I love, what I do, what I say...no matter...an arsey, gobshite woman.

This is exactly how I and the huge majority of my female and male friends feel.
I have a biological sex and a personality and a sexuality. I am a woman I do not need any further labelling as it's all just society bullshit as to short hair long hair pink blue nursing construction.

Btw most days I identify as (or at least most closely relate to) a cat.

No one caters to that yet, not even my own body. Still a woman ,always a woman.

I can't identify myself out of periods,breast pain, sexual assault and Harassment, discrimination,out of the pay gap etc.

If I can't identify out of the bad things, will I fuck jump through hoops and tie myself up in knots of mental gymnastics to appease some twats that think "woman" is a feeling and makeup and heels and simpering sighs and hair swishing.

It's hard work being a woman, I'm not giving up that title or let it be appropriated by men with feelz.

If you were a doctor would you call yourself a nurse or HCP?

Woman-the-gender doesn’t apply to me. Woman-the-sex does.
Same here.

But fundamentally what’s important to me is not the word but the concept and the function. If the best way to preserve women-the-sex’s rights and to continue to fight oppression by sex is to use a different name for the female sex and leave Woman purely as a gender term I would have no issue with that.
This is where we differ...

Even assuming; how long do you think we'd be allowed to keep it for ourselves without being denounced as bigots?
Just no.

I have been wondering about this, like the OP, because I would like to be able to fill in forms which show that:

I am female (statistically relevant in all sorts of ways, it's important to register that);
I am not trans (see above);
but I do not "identify with the gender I was assigned at birth". The reason why I do not identify with it is because I do not have a gender identity and I don't want to be counted as someone who does, who has bought into all this;
BUT that refusing to own a gender identity DOES NOT problematise my sex, or my feelings about my sex, or represent my being a part of any of this drive to devise narrower and more granular labels within the pointless and useless (to me) concept of gender.

What troubles me happened very quickly early on in this thread: the OP was perceived (in a well meaning way) to be someone who has "ishoos" around gender. She isn't - she just doesn't have a gender identity. no ishoos.

I, like the OP, would like a way of recording all this but unfortunately most solutions I think would imply that I think I am somehow gender-special. I am the opposite of gender-special.

[quote allaboutthecrisps]@RiaOverTheRainbow

I guess I am genuinely questioning my gender in an effort to see if I can get on board with the changes some people want. Maybe there are more people out there with a gender identity than i believe and in that case I might benefit from having a coherent way of describing my lack of gender identity.[/quote]
You really don't have to have one. It's your perogative not to. If people ask - say you don't have one. It's allowed.

@SenselessUbiquity

I have been wondering about this, like the OP, because I would like to be able to fill in forms which show that:

I am female (statistically relevant in all sorts of ways, it's important to register that);
I am not trans (see above);
but I do not "identify with the gender I was assigned at birth". The reason why I do not identify with it is because I do not have a gender identity and I don't want to be counted as someone who does, who has bought into all this;
BUT that refusing to own a gender identity DOES NOT problematise my sex, or my feelings about my sex, or represent my being a part of any of this drive to devise narrower and more granular labels within the pointless and useless (to me) concept of gender.

What troubles me happened very quickly early on in this thread: the OP was perceived (in a well meaning way) to be someone who has "ishoos" around gender. She isn't - she just doesn't have a gender identity. no ishoos.

I, like the OP, would like a way of recording all this but unfortunately most solutions I think would imply that I think I am somehow gender-special. I am the opposite of gender-special.

This is exctly how I feel and what I've been struggling to put into words (even in my own head!) so thank you!

I work for the wokest of woke organisations. There's currently a drive to state our pronouns, I don't want to, because tbh I don't care what people call me when I'm not there which is the only time pronouns are used. By stating my pronouns as she/her which is what other people (presumably) use when talking about me, it feels like I'm publicly announcing a 'gender identity' that I don't have.

I'm also really frustrated that it's the opposite of inclusive. They wouldn't be encouraging everyone to put their sexual orientation on their email signature with the reasoning that masses of people putting 'heterosexual' will empower people who are LGBTQ+ to state their orientation, especially if they aren't 'out' yet!

They wouldn't be encouraging everyone to put their sexual orientation on their email signature with the reasoning that masses of people putting 'heterosexual' will empower people who are LGBTQ+ to state their orientation, especially if they aren't 'out' yet!

Lots of companies are starting to realise this and have stopped the practice. It's a good example to give though, if they ask for your pronouns.

I've read every message in this thread and felt the need to share my experience as a trans-woman. I have transitioned, and am seen by society as a "woman". Of course, many of you, like :

Thislittlefinger123 Sun 18-Apr-21 18:25:13
My answer to these questions is to cross them out and put "sex: female".

Gender doesn't exist. It's OK to acknowledge that

Okay, so according to Thislittlefinger123 and many others on this thread, gender doesn't exist! What does that mean "not exist" though?

When a cute man walks up to me and says, "You're a very beautiful woman", do I correct them every time and say "Actually, my Sex is Male."? No, I do not.

When I go to the bank and the teller says "Hello, ma'am", do I correct them and say "Oh me? It's all plastic, I'm pretending to be a Female, my sex is M".? No.

When I use the bathroom, I use the Female bathroom. Should I instead use the Male bathroom because that is my sex, even though I have a vagina and boobs? No, because that would draw unwarranted attention, and is less efficient.

To say gender doesn't exist is a very ignorant thing to say. Society and the way others treat you is dependent on how one looks/sounds/and appears. My Male Sex is less prevalent than my apparent gender.

Now, say we flash back to about 5 years ago, when I still presented masculine, and hadn't started transitioning. An average individual wouldn't look at me (6ft, beard, manly clothing, etc) and say "what are your pronouns?" or think that I was gender-divergent. I was always assumed to be a man, regardless of my "flamboyant personality". I used to work at a call-center. My deep voice over the phone often led me to be identified by others as a man. Once I went through vocal training, this started to change, and people would ascribe woman or ma'am to me, all from the change of voice. Do I correct people and say "Actually, I'm a sir, I'm just changing my voice and body to appear more girl like" ? No. Because my GENDER IDENTITY is in line with female.

Back to OP specifically now,
you stated "This means I'm not cis as the definition of that relies on my gender identity matching my biological sex. I'm not trans as there's no sense of a mismatch either and whilst I hate my body that's not because of it's sexual characteristics. I could see a category of gender queer but that did not really talk to me either."

It's easier to be trans than you think. It's simply saying "At a certain point in time, I don't identify with how people see me, in regards to a gendered lens and society."

People in the thread who have female sex's but say that they don't believe in gender because "they don't identify with pink, or aren't girly", might still be seen as "girls or females" by others in society. Whether you believe you have a gender identity or not, it's not something you get to choose, because other people will ascribe and put their own gendered identifiers on you regardless what you, or any other individual, believes internally.

People are paying attention to nose size, forehead ridge, Adams apple, vocal cues, outfit, expression, and other very small and specific attributes when trying to ascribe the proper terminology for you. I happen to have the privilege's of society ascribing to me what I most personally identify with on the inside, albeit I didn't always have that privilege, but there are many others, cis AND trans people, who do not have these privileges. Gender Dysphoria can affect every individual, cis or trans.

I have never met another trans person who declares that a persons Sex can be changed. A persons Gender can, however, be changed, because the way society treats and respects you can differ based off of ones expression and traits.

Before I fully transitioned, (not that it really stops..), I had always disclosed that I was a trans woman because I didn't have a vagina. Out of fear of being murdered, and becoming another Trans-Panic Defense statistic, I always disclosed that I was a trans woman for my safety, regardless that my penis at this point was the only thing "mannish" about me. Now I don't have this issue, but it doesn't change the fact that I am a trans woman, because of the way society has treated me in the past.

Unfortunately lots of other transgender individuals don't have the privilege's I do of walking into the Female Bathroom and not getting weird looks, or being identified as a woman over the phone, which is why Gender is real and important, because not everyone is privileged enough as me to be able to transition, but a person isn't any more or less deserving of respect because of that factor, and is why people make it a point to ask another's individual about their pronouns or gender identity, because how a person is seen might not be how they feel or identify with on the inside.

Trans can be so easy.
My friend is:
sexuality: straight
gender: male
biological sex:male

But still claims (and rightfully so) that they are not cis. They do not experience problems with how society views or treats them in a gendered sense, but they use gender queer as a self identifier. This puts them under the trans umbrella, as with different cultures and societies, there are endless ways to deviate from being a cis individual.

Don't see trans as a list of things you need to accomplish in order to qualify. You do not need dysphoria to be trans. Trans is so stigmatized in todays society, heavily more so than being gay or lesbian. If people realized that it's as simple as not wanting to be seen in the same light society places on individuals, or you don't place gender on other individuals, than you have every right to argue to the end of time that you are not CIS. Trans and cis are absolute opposites etymologically. If you are not cis, you are trans. If you are not trans, you are cis. If you are scared of using any of those labels, you are probably defining transgender incorrectly, or are facing an internalized transphobia scenario, because the umbrella is quite large to be a trans individual, when the only thing needed to be trans is to not be cis.

I usually pick “other” and put “sex not gender” if there’s an option to write a comment. I also don’t have a gender identity and refuse to label myself as having one.

This came up because I was completing some questionnaires which asked me to report my gender identity. If this is something we're going to be asked to do more often (and I think it is) its important to me to do this in a way which I can actually identify with.

If it's a mandatory question (can't skip it) and you're actually asked your "gender identity" (not just "gender", which could be someone's faux-polite way of asking sex) and there's no option for "none of the above" or "does not apply" then you should take a moment to complain to the organisation sponsoring the survey so that they know their survey-maker screwed up and so they have a chance to fix it for future surveys.

Everyone makes mistakes or is short-sighted and self-absorbed at times; you don't have to adjust to something that's harmful to you.

Does it matter?

You’re either male or female. Labelling yourself one gender or the other won’t add anything to your life.

Slightly off topic how much of our valuable time should we be giving to the woke agenda when our country is in such straights? It really doesn't matter how we can be different but how we are the same - human beings. As human beings we should be working together to improve our world not splitting it apart over such a self indulgent matter. When all are safe, fed, schooled, nursed etc then this may be a question that could be discussed. Note I said could not should. Adult human female here and how dare anyone try to change it.