Do YOU still believe in Tony?

[JoolsToo]

Just been watching BBC2 - just wondered what MNers thoughts were on our Prime Minister ....

its the pretence that it was for humanitarian reasons which gets most people i know and the tenious link from afghanistan to iraq - when afghanistan has osama - who they didnt catch - but why would you want to catch an old time family pal? there are lots of places america could go and "save" eh victoria

Saddam Hussein was very much back in his box well before the invasion. The country was full of UN inspectors and subject to extremely stringent sanctions. There was no genocide, there were no WMD. The gassing of the kurds happened many years ago and there was no international intervention. I interviewed the deaf Tory MP (whose name I'm ashamed to say escapes me) to publicise it, and I know there was no great international effort. Less even than there is in Sudan, where the genocide is ongoing. Yes, Saddam Hussein was a brutal man and a dictator, but the whole of the region and most of Africa is ruled by very similar regimes (not to mention all our 'allies'). And the humanitarian case in Afghanistan was also ignored totally until 9/11 - ask Amnesty International. The 'humanitarian case' is a total smokescreen. It was never the reason, stated or unstated that Blair and Bush went to war. And even if it was, it was a total failure. Afghanistan is as lawless and horrific as ever. Iraq is a far, far worse place. Read any of the reports from journalists actually out there. The Iraqi people live in fear - rape is a huge problem, so much so that Iraqi women, who used to be the most free in the region, don't dare leave their homes. Fundamentalism is on the rise. The place is full of terrorism, kidnapping, and people's previously relatively civilised lives are impossible amid the rubble of what used to be cities and villages. It's been a disaster and people are still dying and it is getting worse, not better.

aloha, was that Emma Nicholson? (She is Tory and sounds deaf, and is v anti Saddam, but don't know if that's who you mean?)

And Al-Quaeda and Iraq are/were NOT linked. However, it is very active and gets its funding from Saudia Arabia and Pakistan. So why aren't we 'liberating' them. Not much democracy in Saudi, it's ruled by a dictator and the human rights record in both Saudi and Pakistan isn't exactly glittering.

Yes, it was Emma Nicholson, who, despite not agreeing with her politics, I did find an impressive person. She adopted a Kurdish boy who was severely burned. Also tough and determined and didn't think of herself as disabled in the least.

And Uhu, do you think that you have a monopoly on feeling sad about what happened in other places unconnected to Iraq? Don't you understand it is perfectly possible to feel anguish for those people AND for those now being blown to bits in Iraq? This is NOT a humanitarian war, and from what I understand from those reporting actually in Iraq, this is exactly the viewpoint of the Iraqis themselves. Robert Fisk says he cannot find a single person who now supports the invasion.

I'm not having a go at you, actually, but I do find it slightly insulting when people say that those of us who oppose the war are unconcerned about human rights. I happen to think it's quite the opposite way round. I think personal insults such as references to 'bitching' are entirely unpleasant and, indeed, sexist!

Wellone things for sure - we're all really passionate about our politics - a good thing I think. Let's face it we're never all going to agree.
I would also like to offer that all parties do some good things and also make some gaffes so don't let's say the conservatives never did anything good - of course they did as have the Socialists. I do find it odd tho' that some of you seem quite violently opposed to conservatism as if its some sort of nasty disease and the country would somehow return to the depression should they gain power again which is a bit naive to say the least and harps back to 50s/60s labels of Labour are for the working man and Conservatives are snobs which in this day and age I cannot believe ANYONE would think!
You'll be aware by now that I am not a Socialist and I do think people like Tony Blair, Harriet Harman and Dianne Abbot (education) are hypocrites and I really cannot respect John Prescott at all (thumping a civilian and taking his wife 200 yds in his Jag so her hair didn't get messy) - I don't agree with most of their policies and the Iraq war has been VERY damaging BUT in my everyday life, I'm happy, I'm healthy and I've got a fab family of which I'm extremely proud - I feel very lucky and I'm glad I live in country where we are freely able to debate like this.

Go Aloha!

I agree completely. Bush in particular comes out with some incredibly offensive stuff (mostly along the lines of "if you don't support the war then you must support terrorism" ) but Blair is almost as bad and not just about the war: if you don't support things like foundation hospitals competing with each other for the best patients then you are obviously against "progress" etc.

The idea of the Tories getting back in and doing things like decimating the civil service (if they're so useless, why didn't they get rid of them when they were last in power? ) does scare me, but Blair will see an election win as a vindication of his foreign policy (I doubt he'll see it as a vindication of Labour's better policies, like family tax credits). And that scares me too.

Point of info - Emma Nicholson switched from the Tories to the Lib Dems about 10 years ago. She is a Lib Dem peer. So maybe that's why it's easier to like her!

The Tories are not going to win. They have no credible people in the Shadow Cabinet and can't find a place to the right of Blair that isn't already occupied by UNIP and the BNP. That's the problem - there is no believable alternative to Labour. As long as Labour MPs believe that Blair is their greatest electoral asset, he will remain in power. It's the late 80s Tory Party all over again.

well said aloha
uhu we do know about the suffering in other countries!
i have a friend from iraq and she absolutely hated saddam but is devastated about what's going on in her country,she has lost touch with most of her relatives over there,she doesn't know wether they're dead or alive,she says she now hates bush more than saddam
do people really believe bush was concerned about the masacre of the kurds when he invaded iraq???????did he hell,is just another lie to justify this war

I'm proud to say my parents tried to save us all from TB. When he was a very wet-behind-the-ears would-be prospective parliamentary candidate he tried for their constituency. And they turned him down (along with the other members of the selection panel, to be fair). My mother says she thought he was an untrustworthy little creep.
Isn't it annoying when your mother is always right?
P.S. someone on this thread said Jack Straw would make a good alternative. My parents knew him when he was president of the National Union of Students and from their reports he's even worse than Tony...

It's estimated that the British annual arms trade has sales worth £17bn. Britain is the worlds 2nd biggest arms exporter behind the USA with a market share of 20%. It's estimated that the industry employs over 250000 people spread over around 10,000 firms with 1.2 million other people indirectly dependent on it for a living. After recent purchases from the US company Lockheed Martin, BAE Systems (British company) is now the largest arms company in the world.

One of the largest arms contract signed was the Al-Yamamah contract worth £15bn. The first phase was signed in 1986 by the then Trade Industry Secretary, Michael Heseltine. The contract is to supply Saudi Arabia with Tornados, Hawks and other aircraft systems. BAE Systems is the main contractor and has around 2,500 contractors in Saudi Arabia to support the contract.

If we want to help those little children that you are always bringing up in these arguments, do something about the arms trade. Just remember though, there are lots of little children in this country whose parent's livelihood is dependent on this market.

Like it or not, freedom and liberty to say, think and go where you like comes at a price. Do you think that the UK's march to democracy was a bloodless transition? How many lives were lost in America's War of Independence and Civil War? How many lives in total were lost in WW1 & 2? It's very easy to pick on TB as the bad guy when you're sat in your nice comfortable homes with plenty of food and without the worry that you will be arrested any moment for being a subversive who disagrees with your unelected government.

Those of you who weep for the poor children in Iraq, weep for all the other children who are killed or orphaned thanks to the arms trade which provide us with the income that gives us the standard of living that we enjoy in this country.

I personally support the defence industry because I respect the fact that many people gave their lives for the liberty that I now enjoy and that too many of you glibly take for granted.

Iraq is a tragedy but don't just blame TB. The terrorists destablising the country have absolutely no interest in helping the people build a better Iraq. They just want to get even with the USA mainly and in doing so, how many Iraqi children are they butchering?

I am developing a certain amount of respect for Gordon Brown though.....

Uhu I think somebody has already made the point that worrying about children in Iraq being blown to bits does not preclude worrying about other children.

And as for the first and second world wars being fought for liberty... give me a break.

Uhu - nobody is blaming TB and GWB more than they blame the terrorists. But my point is that the new terrorist problem in Iraq was entirely predictable and a fairly direct result of the invasion of Iraq. That is not to excuse the terrorists, but blaming the terrorists doesn't get the UK and US govts off the hook either.

Also just because some wars in the past were fought over liberty doesn't mean every war is justifiable in those terms. The war wasn't about freedom of speech. If the Iraqis get real freedom after the elections then that will be a positive result, but what if they don't? And is fredom really worth such a great price? I know if there was no freedom of speech in this country I would probably fight for it, but I would not be grateful to any foreign invaders who gave me that freedom at the price of several thousand lives.

FFS - Jack Straw was shakign hands with Mugabe the other day - apparently it was dark and he did not know who it was and he did not want to be rude so using the excuse VictoriaPeckham that SH was a monster does not wash with me - the USA and UK are not a police force that are supposed to hold Human Rioghts Breaches as reasons to go and invade places - that is the job of the UN and they don;t actually invade at all do they!! and they most certainly did not want to in this instance and not GDB and TB are begging them to get more involved!!

"I personally support the defence industry because I respect the fact that many people gave their lives for the liberty that I now enjoy and that too many of you glibly take for granted...."

What is the link (other than a rhetorical one) between a conscript army fighting against the Nazis in the 1940s and an arms industry that feeds off overseas wars now, apart from the fact that they are both labelled 'defence'? How do British firms selling arms to guerillas in the Congo defend me? And the argument about employment in the arms industry is unconvincing. You can defend any activity, however repugnant, on the basis that it employs people.

Thought you could use the word defence if it meant you were being attacked??

The defence industry in terms of most of it and the arms sold to armies and groups abroad these days should be called an attack industry - mostly I am sad to say against citizens of places like Zimbabwe, Sudan and Hiati who have done F all wrong!!

FFS the guards at B'ham Palace are not allowed to carry arms or most of our police force the very people who actually defend us (an Lizzie too!!)

Soprano, yes. Blair, no.

emma nicholson defected to the libdems, i spoke to her once about the terrible death of her husband.
tony i have mixed feelings about

Yes, I do know she's a libdem now (good! too good for the Tories) but as far as I can recall, When I interviewed her she was still a Tory, which goes to show how far back SH was committing crimes against the Marsh Arabs, and how unconcerned the British and Americans were about them when they were a real, live issue.
I certainly don't take liberty 'glibly' for granted. I find this personal abuse style of argument rather tiresome. Nor do I think very highly of the arms trade!
And it's not just us who you sneer at as living 'in our nice comfortable homes' who oppose the invasion. It is the very people we were supposed to be 'liberating'. They hate us. Their daily lives were Ok and now they are utterly intolerable. The place is now full of terrorism, kidnapping, rape, disease and chaos. It's all very well to say 'liberty comes at a price' if you aren't paying the price of something you didn't want in the first place. Every respected reporter/commentator in the region says the same thing - the Iraqis hate what is happening to their country. Only Blair and Bush seem to think otherwise.

And yes, what on earth does selling arms to some of the darkest, most vile regimes on earth have to do with defending our liberty? What an odd thing to suggest.
Twinkie, I thought that was the most laughable excuse I have ever heard. "I couldn't see the black man as it was dark". Put your glasses back on Mr Straw.
Edam, I'd like to shake your mother's hand, cyberspacely.