Do YOU still believe in Tony?

[JoolsToo]

Just been watching BBC2 - just wondered what MNers thoughts were on our Prime Minister ....

Donnie - no I do not think Kilroy Silk is what you called him and quite frankly how you can use that language against him and then criticise him for expressing views that a lot of people agree with - and what he said was NOT racist (we're back to this pc business again!)whether UKIP are doomed is another discussion.

watch out - next thing you know, you won't be able to say 'to*er' without getting arrested! (funny that - its ok to call someone a 'to*er' or somesuch other as long you you don't use an ethic/nationality/colour/religious prefix!)

sorry Jools. Will sit in the corner and think about my loutish behaviour.Still intrigued by the national service idea though.

sorry Jools. Will sit in the corner and think about my loutish behaviour.Still intrigued by the national service idea though.

Edam I disagree that people not having faith in the political system is a bad thing. If the political system is bad, then it's a good thing if no-one likes it or anything in it. And also, in the right circumstances, it can be the impetus to change it (although I agree that that can sometimes be for the worse - Weimar springs to mind!)

donnie - its ok, you can come out of the corner! I only put the National Service because I watched 'Bad Lads Army' and it was an interesting exercise. The lads were all anti-discipline, petty criminals or just plain disruptive - but by the end of the exercise they'd had a great time, were motivated to do better, one even said it had a more positive effect than prison! and 5 of them joined up! They all felt very proud of what they'd achieved and were chuffed that their families were also proud. Surely this says something about the validity of National Service - even for only 6 months? Let's give it a go ...

Is this something like believing in Father Christmas?

Why? It's been done before.

Skate - yes it bloo*y has and WHY did they stop it? did it contravene Human Rights or some such poncey idealogy!?

Communities could benefit too and it'd bring down the unemployment figures a treat!

Oldiemum, I agree. Change the leader and I would vote Labour again. The war - and the cosying up to the extremely right-wing Bush has made me feel utterly disillusioned.
Why do I oppose National Service? Well for a start, I don't want to see other people's innocent teenage children murdered in Iraq, not to mention my own.

him and bush are nothing but a pair of f*ing liying murderers!!

No, I don't believe in TB but still don't know what I'd do if there was election tomorrow really. Voted Libdem in last local elections. Still too frightened of the Tories getting in by default. As Clare Rayner said in the paper the other day, people haven't abandoned the Labour party, the Labour party has abandoned us.

And I do think Kilroy-Silk is a repugnant little jerk

Just a question (and please give a reasoned answer) why are you scared of the Tories, what did they do that was SO bad - bearing in mind all governments make some mistakes (usually not the scale of TB's government tho')

aloha - if there was a large scale conflict - you'd lose your son to the battlefield anyway - whatever government was in power - makes you think about all those lads in the 1st & 2nd world wars eh?

If there was national service right now, other people's teenagers would be dying as we speak in that illegal 'war' in Iraq. That's not what I want for my kids. I don't suppose it's what you want for yours. That's what National Service would mean. I didn't have my child to make cannon fodder for Tony Blair.

If 'pc' means that people don't feel comfortable referring to othes as 'cripples' or 'niggers' ,, and employers aren't allowed to fire women because they are pregnant, then I am very, very happy to have a more 'pc' society. In fact, I am delighted.

Well, I'm against National Service (apart from anything else, the services don't want hordes of untrained youths) but......if Blair's teenage children had been doing compulsory time in the Armed Forces he might have thought twice about going to war in the first place. Unless his children did a GWB and managed to evade their duties, of course. G*d, it all makes me sick, tbh.

Aloha - with regard to pc, I think the examples you've given are ones most people will agree with, but IMHO pc has just gone over the top in this country - it's gone bloody mad the daft things you can't say.

HATE HIM

But I think most forces wives are totally agianst the war in Iraq?

aloha - stop playing Devil's Advocate - of course those words are offensive but .....

THE Welsh Development Agency has been accused of "political correctness gone mad" after staff were advised not to use "offensive" terms like "nit-picking" and "brainstorming".

"a booklet entitled Towards a Non-violent Society - published by a charity set up in the wake of the murder of Liverpool toddler Jamie Bulger called Forum on Children and Violence.

It was launched by education minister Margaret Hodge in 2000 and argues that games like musical chairs can encourage a violent attitude."

"cited two instances when job advertisements were blocked from seeking "friendly" or "hard-working" candidates - on grounds this discriminated against those who were grumpy or lazy."

please don't tell me you think THIS is sensible?

Skate, I'm intrigued, what sort of things can't you say any more because of pc? To be honest, I think pc is about having good manners and not referring to people in an offensive way so I am interestedto know which things people feel they are no longer allowed to say because of pc as opposed to a misunderstanding of pc.

There was a really interesting thread on here a few months ago about eenie, meenie, minie mo (or however it is supposed to be spelt) and I learn from that thread and other media information why this was ver offensive to some people. Apart from the line about 'catch a ni**er by the toe' - it was originally a catchy little tune used by the klu klux klan to get everyone in the mood before when they went out to tar and feather people for having the temerity to be born black. I had no idea about this part of the phrase's history and was horrified that such phrases are used by kids today when they have such an offensive history.

I'm truly shocked by some of the things I have read here.
Think I'll go and watch TV.

JoolsToo, sorry, you posted while I was still typing my message - I'm not convinced that they examples you haved cited are political correctness, I think they are examples of people not really understanding the concept and applying rules in an arbitary manner. The example about musical chairs causing violent behaviour, to me, is someone or some organisation expressing their opinion on cause and effect- not really political correctness.

It is a bit like saying democracy doesn't work because elections results are rigged - surely in a real democracy, elections would not be rigged, the factthat an election can be rigged means that it is not a true democracy! I still say pcis about stopping to think a moment to consider whether what people may be about to say (perhaps out of habit) could cause offense - and if so, from not saying it. Surely, that is just good manners?

sis - a couple of examples are 'manpower' and 'disabled' but we seem to be swaying somewhat from the original thread which was

Do YOU still believe in Tony?

This thread may have run its course but my invitation to MNers who wouldn't vote Tory to come up with a reasoned argument for 'why not?' seems to have fallen on deaf ears!

Do YOU still believe in Tony?

NO

I'm not 'playing devil's advocate'. I think you may have been taking your copy of the Daily Mail too seriously. I think the rise in sensitivity about how we label people is a very good thing, as parents of children who might otherwise be called niggers, mongols or cripples would tend to agree. If people have to think a little more, then I think this too is a good thing. I suspect we forget how far we have come and how recent these changes are. It really wasn't so long ago that people advertising accommodation were able to say 'no blacks, no irish', and children were routinely called 'bastards'. All this sort of change annoys someone, but it makes someone else's life infinitely better.
Suedonim, good point. I very doubt Cherie would have let him send their own sons to Iraq. Other people's sons and daughters are clearly a very different thing.

Er, why on earth do you think you can't say disabled? That's just misinformed nonsense.